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MW allocation and destroyed transports http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=27522 |
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Author: | Dave [ Thu May 29, 2014 1:33 pm ] |
Post subject: | MW allocation and destroyed transports |
I'm working through the FAQs to get them into the CMS for the TP. After reading the first FAQ from 1.9.6 I thought up this scenario: A formation with infantry being transported takes AT and MW fire. A transport is destroyed by an AT shot, the infantry survive and are placed where the AV was, which happens to be in base contact with another transport. When it comes time to allocate the MW hits, are the infantry valid targets? When firing the MW shots the player didn't take the -1 to hit units that are concealed. With the infantry being is base contact with an AV they wouldn't normally be up for allocation. At any rate, being able to potentially allocate MW hits to units that weren't eligible targets when the shots were fired is sloppy. Here's the FAQ I'm referring to: Quote: Q: Can a formation that have a mixture of AP and AT shots fire the AP shots at a formation in which all its infantry is in transports, so that any infantry, whose transport is destroyed and survives, can be shot at?
A: No. They must be an eligible target at the beginning of the shooting action, although according to section 2.2.6 AP and AT hits are allocated first and saves made before MW. This means you could shoot up a bunch of transport vehicles, and then have MW hits allocated to any infantry that survive (this doesn’t apply in the experimental hit allocation rules). |
Author: | Onyx [ Thu May 29, 2014 1:38 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: MW allocation and destroyed transports |
My first reaction is to say that the infantry would not be valid targets for the MW hits as they weren't specifically targeted in the shooting phase. Should I come up with a new FAQ for this situation? |
Author: | Dave [ Thu May 29, 2014 2:02 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: MW allocation and destroyed transports |
It wouldn't hurt, but I'm leaning towards just removing that FAQ all together and not allowing MW hits to be applied to units that weren't there when firing. It's cleaner, and it prevents the defender from gaming where the MW hits will go (MW hit on a fully loaded transport or some schmoe that just bailed out...). I also caught this sentence in 2.2.6: Quote: Allocating Hits: If an attacking formation scores hits both with normal weapons and weapons with the macro-weapon ability, then the opposing player must allocate and make any saves for the normal hits first, and then allocate and make any saves for the macro-weapon hits. Hits from macro-weapons can only be applied to units that are in a position to be hit by a macro-weapon. That's vague as all hell but could apply to the situation we're talking about and disallow the infantry from being considered as units up for MW hit allocation. |
Author: | Onyx [ Thu May 29, 2014 2:10 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: MW allocation and destroyed transports |
Dave wrote: but I'm leaning towards just removing that FAQ all together and not allowing MW hits to be applied to units that weren't there when firing. It's cleaner, and it prevents the defender from gaming where the MW hits will go (MW hit on a fully loaded transport or some schmoe that just bailed out...). Makes sense to me mate. |
Author: | Dave [ Thu May 29, 2014 2:20 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: MW allocation and destroyed transports |
Can we get other people's thoughts on this? How would people play this? |
Author: | Kyrt [ Thu May 29, 2014 2:37 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: MW allocation and destroyed transports |
For completeness, we should acknowledge that preventing infantry in vehicles to be hit by MW can still produce a good result for the defender. i.e. if the transports die through AT, the MW shots will be wasted. Advantageous for units like marines in rhinos, for example. However, I agree too - applying the "valid target" check at the beginning makes sense to me and is the simplest ruling too. So long as it doesn't contradict any rules of course, which it doesn't seem to. I'm not exactly sure what was meant by the "so long as in position to be hit" sentence either, but it seems to fit and support this way of doing it. So would this mean you would remove that FAQ, and replace it with: Q: When vehicles transporting infantry are destroyed, can any surviving infantry be allocated AP or MW hits? A: No. The defender allocates hits only to units that were eligible targets at the beginning of the shooting. Note that AP weapons that do not have any valid targets at the beginning may not roll any to-hit dice. |
Author: | Dwarf Supreme [ Thu May 29, 2014 2:49 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: MW allocation and destroyed transports |
It seems reasonable to me that passengers in a destroyed transport are not eligible to be targeted. Since theoretically all of the hits occur while the passengers are inside the transport, it could be argued that complete resolution of allocated hits occurs before the passengers bail out. |
Author: | berzerkmonkey [ Thu May 29, 2014 3:25 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: MW allocation and destroyed transports |
I also agree - the target is the transport, and if it is destroyed before the MW takes effect, it is a "wasted" shot. I'm under the assumption that all fire is considered simultaneous. Allowing the troops to be hit by this MW would imply that there is a delay between the AT fire and the MW fire. |
Author: | kyussinchains [ Thu May 29, 2014 5:30 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: MW allocation and destroyed transports |
agreed with DS, while hits are resolved seperately, it can be assume they occur at the same time.... in the case where AP hits destroy LV transports, surviving infantry are not then hit by any excess AP shots, I think it would be the same case here, the MW shots are wasted as they no longer have a target |
Author: | jimmyzimms [ Thu May 29, 2014 5:31 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: MW allocation and destroyed transports |
+1 I never even knew this was a question, that's just how we've played it |
Author: | Ginger [ Fri May 30, 2014 9:21 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: MW allocation and destroyed transports |
Hmm, in essence we are querying the relative timing of the allocation of MW hits and the resolution of the effects from earlier hits. I think we need to recognise that the same issue applies to assaults, so the FAQ needs to reflect this rather than only applying to shooting. The key section of the rules is in 1.9.6 Quote: If an attacking formation scores hits both with normal weapons and weapons with the macro-weapon ability, then the opposing player must allocate and make any saves for the normal hits first, and then allocate and make any saves for the macro-weapon hits. Hits from macro-weapons can only be applied to units that are in a position to be hit by a macro-weapon (Note: With the exception of War Engines (see 3.3.2), during an assault, all units up to 15cm away are valid targets for allocation, regardless of whether the hits are from CC or FF). (My emphasis) The 'separate' MW allocation round is all part of the same round of hit allocation so the argument is that MW hits should not apply to the transported infantry that have bailed out of the destroyed vehicle because they were not in a position to be hit by the MW (since they were inside their vehicle) - in effect, the vehicle armour saves them from the effects of the MW hit . . . . . Doesn't that go against the principle of MW hits on vehicles, where transported troops use their own armour save against the MW hit (and most die as a result)? After all, if the vehicle had survived the AT hit both it and the troops inside would have been incinerated by the MW hit! With respect, I would suggest that the MW hit *should* be applied to one of the surviving infantry. This simulates the vehicle being knocked out and the surviving infantry succumbing to the almost simultaneous MW attack. (Note the question of the infantry bailing out 'into cover' is IMHO a "red herring"; it only applies to the firer shooting at a target, not to the effects of that shooting.) |
Author: | Kyrt [ Fri May 30, 2014 11:30 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: MW allocation and destroyed transports |
Ginger wrote: Hmm, in essence we are querying the relative timing of the allocation of MW hits and the resolution of the effects from earlier hits. I think we need to recognise that the same issue applies to assaults, so the FAQ needs to reflect this rather than only applying to shooting. The key section of the rules is in 1.9.6 Quote: If an attacking formation scores hits both with normal weapons and weapons with the macro-weapon ability, then the opposing player must allocate and make any saves for the normal hits first, and then allocate and make any saves for the macro-weapon hits. Hits from macro-weapons can only be applied to units that are in a position to be hit by a macro-weapon (Note: With the exception of War Engines (see 3.3.2), during an assault, all units up to 15cm away are valid targets for allocation, regardless of whether the hits are from CC or FF). (My emphasis) The 'separate' MW allocation round is all part of the same round of hit allocation so the argument is that MW hits should not apply to the transported infantry that have bailed out of the destroyed vehicle because they were not in a position to be hit by the MW (since they were inside their vehicle) - in effect, the vehicle armour saves them from the effects of the MW hit . . . . . Doesn't that go against the principle of MW hits on vehicles, where transported troops use their own armour save against the MW hit (and most die as a result)? After all, if the vehicle had survived the AT hit both it and the troops inside would have been incinerated by the MW hit! With respect, I would suggest that the MW hit *should* be applied to one of the surviving infantry. This simulates the vehicle being knocked out and the surviving infantry succumbing to the almost simultaneous MW attack. (Note the question of the infantry bailing out 'into cover' is IMHO a "red herring"; it only applies to the firer shooting at a target, not to the effects of that shooting.) Yes indeed, as I wrote earlier, the side effect is that transporters that die to AT hits are "blocking" any MW hits that would have been allocated on them. You're right, what should happen to be "realistic" is that both the AT and the MW hits should be allocated onto the vehicle, but unfortunately that can't happen due to the MW allocation rules. The problems with allowing the MW to "carry over" to the bailing out infantry are that: a) It can create an equally "unjust" opposite situation, where MW hits that should have been allocated onto transports carrying infantry get allocated to "only" infantry. b) It seems to contravene Hits from macro-weapons can only be applied to units that are in a position to be hit by a macro-weapon I see this situation as an example of an artefact of the rules that we just have to accept. Let's be honest, there are tons of them already regarding hit allocation where mixing different types of hits are concerned. First strike, ignore cover, disrupt etc. |
Author: | Ginger [ Fri May 30, 2014 3:43 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: MW allocation and destroyed transports |
So, you think this should apply in all cases, including assaults? I am less sure about this because
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Author: | Dave [ Fri May 30, 2014 4:02 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: MW allocation and destroyed transports |
I was under the impression that this would be for shooting only. |
Author: | berzerkmonkey [ Fri May 30, 2014 4:39 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: MW allocation and destroyed transports |
Here's where the problem comes in: Section 3.1.3" "In both cases, the war engine and the transported units are treated as a single formation until the shooting attack or assault has been resolved. The war engine and the formation that disembarked are treated as being separate formations once the war engine has completely resolved its action." According to this, WEs and transported units are one, single formation. BUT Section 3.2.1: "If a formation includes both war engines and non-war engine units then an attacker must state whether any attacks he makes on the formation will be directed at the war engines or the other units in the formation. Attacks directed at the war engines can only be allocated against war engines if they hit, while attacks directed at other units may not be allocated to the war engines in the formation." So, I guess the question to ask is: are the transported troops of a just destroyed WE formation still considered as part of the WE or are they now a separate formation on their own? |
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