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| 2 rules questions http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=26996 |
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| Author: | mspaetauf [ Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | 2 rules questions |
Hello everybody! two questions I have: 1) view range in terrain (or into terrain) is 10 cm. Scout ZOC is 10 cm. So how do you guys handle scouts that are positioned inside a big terrain piece? Since you cannot get closer than 10 cm, you cannot shoot the guys. Or do you play it that you can go to 10 cm and still shoot them? 2) assault without LOS; I assaulted an enemy formation hiding behind terrain with my Deathwheel - I didn't have the moves to get them into view range, so I had to stop on the other side of the (view-obscuring) terrain piece, effectively having no LOS. According to the rule book, only thing that has to happen is that you are within 15cm to the enemy for an assault to take place. I found this to be kind of odd to be honest. I was up 3 points without being able to take a shot at the enemy, or without them even seeing me (2 for BM, 1 for numbers). Isn't that a bit unrealistic? I mean you don't run away from stuff that you aren't even aware of, do you? How would you play this? cheers, |
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| Author: | Commander Sims [ Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2 rules questions |
I can only answer the first one. I agree with your final interpretation, move upto 10cm and shoot. |
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| Author: | kyussinchains [ Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2 rules questions |
I dont understand the first question, you can see 10cm into terrain so can shoot something less than 10cm in, you can do this from any distance so if you have 45cm range you can shoot from 45cm away, scouts having a 10cm zone of control makes no difference You dont need LOS to engage, provided you can get into range and LOS of a unit in the target formation you can engage it, troops have radio comms and satellite uplinks so they know where the enemy are |
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| Author: | Alf O'Mega [ Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2 rules questions |
With regards to scouts ZOC, if what you're asking is can you shoot at scouts more than 10cm in from the edge of a terrain piece by moving to the edge of their ZOC I would say no. LOS is 10cm and you have to stay outside of their ZOC, therefore more than 10cm away so you are unable to draw LOS to them. On point 2, I think you're asking if you need to end up within 15cm *and have LOS* to the target formation and looking at the rules there is in fact no requirement to have LOS on the target. I would suggest that this is an oversight in the rules as it does end up with the silly situation of being engaged from one side of a hill by an enemy that can't see you and winning through numbers and BMs which does feel somewhat gamey. This could probably do with a FAQ, unless it's intentional? kyussinchains is right that you don't need LOS to the target in order to engage them, but I don't think that's what you're asking. |
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| Author: | Kyrt [ Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2 rules questions |
For point one, I understand what you mean. No, you cannot shoot a scout unit that is more than 10cm from the edge of the terrain piece, because it is impossible to move far enough into the terrain piece without also moving into their ZoC. Of course, they can't shoot out of it either. If you want to kill them, you have to engage them. Note that if you engage them within that terrain, attacking and defending units still need to be within 10cm to see (and thus attack) one another. That means if you are engaging scouts, you must enter their ZoC, and thus must try to get into base contact if you are able. However in my experience it is very rare for a whole formation of scouts to be completely hidden within terrain from every direction. It would need to be a very large piece of terrain. |
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| Author: | Ginger [ Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2 rules questions |
In both cases, to shoot or to cause FF hits, you need to have both range and Line of Fire. As Kyrt says, this means that you may not shoot scouts more than 10cm into terrain because you may not enter the scouts ZoC, but must be with within 10cm of them to shoot them. While a formation may declare an assault and move within 15cm of the target, the chargers may not cause any casualties (so you would move straight into the assault resolution step) From 1.12.5 resolve attacks Quote: 1.12.5 Resolve Attacks
All units have two assault values: a close combat value and a firefight value. Units that are in base-to-base contact with the enemy use the close combat value, while units that are not in base contact but are within 15cm and have a line of fire to the enemy can use their firefight value. Units that are armed only with close combat weapons and do not have any small arms or other ranged weapons may only attack if in base contact with the enemy. |
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| Author: | Alf O'Mega [ Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2 rules questions |
So it's completely valid to engage a unit you can't see with a potential +4 combat res due to numbers and BMs? That seems a little odd? |
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| Author: | Kyrt [ Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2 rules questions |
Alf O'Mega wrote: So it's completely valid to engage a unit you can't see with a potential +4 combat res due to numbers and BMs? That seems a little odd? True, and I would be inclined to think it's an oversight, but the rules don't actually say anything about LoS in the relevant parts (i.e. what happens if nothing makes it into 15cm, and what happens when all of the "directly" engaged units are destroyed - in both cases only the range is mentioned). That being said, it's pretty rare. In the case of defenders within terrain, it's impossible: if the attacker can get within 15cm, then the defender can get within 10cm thanks after counter charging. So it can only happen with terrain features that are both impassable to the defender AND blocking LoS. If the terrain is also impassable to the attackers then it would also have to be < 15cm wide. Examples would include an infantry formation attacking a vehicle formation that is hiding behind a building, or an engagement between two formations either side of a fortified wall. Given how infrequently it comes up, whenever it has happened in games I have played it has been sufficient to just agree not to do it. |
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| Author: | Ginger [ Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2 rules questions |
I must say I have never encountered this before, and it does seem potentially abusable. A player could set up such an assault with the express intention of not being able to use FF, in order for supporting fire to be used and win that way. Worse, if the player is Eldar this would be an excellent way to catapult the formation forward to support another engagement. It might be worth considering a slight rules modification requiring that at least one assaulting unit ends the charge move inside 15cm *and Line of Fire* of a target unit. |
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| Author: | Moscovian [ Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2 rules questions |
It would have to be "and a LOF from at least one unit to any target unit." |
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| Author: | Onyx [ Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2 rules questions |
Noted. |
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