hi all

when can a formation leave a broken WE

in our game tonight my squat Leviathan was broken by BM from shooting with a bezerker brotherhood still inside

when can they get out

do they have to wait until the WE rallies or is assaulted ?

cheers

PAR

I think you are missing a fundamental point; when troops are inside a transport, they are effectively part of the Transports 'formation'. This is true irrespective of whether the Transport is part of the formation or not - so the remnants of a Marine formation with a Rhino containing 2x Marines is effectively 3x units and needs an appropriate number of BMs before it is considered Broken. Equally a THawk with 6x Marines inside does not break when it has 4x BMs. However, when the formations separate their status may change depending upon the number of BMs associated with each formation.

So, in your case, the Leviathan with a Berserker brotherhood inside would need 12x BMs to break. Note, once the Leviathan has 6x BM, disembarking the Berserker brotherhood will automatically break the Leviathan (which would then immediately take 2x withdrawal moves).

Edited as incorrect in the light of subsequent discussions

I think this is incorrect Ginger.

The formation is only considered part of the WEs formation for the duration of any Engage or shooting taken while disembarking, not while simply being transported. (EA 3.1.3)

A WE must dismount transported troops at the end of a move just like a normal transport, so a broken WE cannot dismount troops except as part of a withdrawal move. If it does so the transported troops may not take an action that turn as per EA 3.1.3.

Note that it is possible to mount up troops into a broken WE though since it is the troops formation that is activating in this case. (Edit: Why one would want to do such a thing is perhaps a different discussion...)

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

Will be interested to hear the final answer.

It didnt really change the final outcome - I still lost.

Well, 1.7.5 on Transport Vehicles, 2nd para says
The WE section adapts these rules for separate formations. so 3.1.3 third para says the following

So RAW, the WE is the unit that activates and it is *not* forced to disembark troops at the end of its move.

Past discussions have expanded on the status of the formations at this point and concluded that this is effectively a single formation that combines the number of units as well as the other attributes (BMs, Character attributes etc) - hence my earlier answer.

We seem to have some cross-talk here.

1) There is of course no compulsion to disembark at any time. Transported units may disembark from a broken WE after a withdrawal move. Since the WE is broken this is the only time they may disembark before the WE Rallies.

2) My parting point was that it is possible, though not neccessarily desirable, for a unit to embark into a broken WE as the embarking unit is the active unit and not the WE.

3) I think the relevent passage can be read either way. You could say that the formations are implied to be combined from embarkation until the end of the disembarkation action. However I find the reading that the formations remain distinct except while making that disembarkation action equally valid. If you can find previous discussion I'd love to see a link...

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

Bother, you got there first before I could amend my post

On reflection, there have been relatively recent threads on WE air transports where Neal explicitly said that the WE activates in isolation, bringing the contents "along for the ride" if successful. Equally when rallying in the end phase, both formations rally separately. So, I think you are correct that they *only* count as a "single formation" when shooting or assaulting (per 3.1.3) and are otherwise deemed separate.
(I presume you agree that they would automatically deemed to be a single formation if the WE is the target of an assault.)

Consequently I agree with your last three points and have struck out my earlier reply.

The system works!

Anyway, yes, I'd agree that the formation counts as combined if assaulted, because you would disembark as part of the countercharge move, which would allow you to join in the WEs assault.

Two followup questions:

1) Would the disembarking formation be allowed an activation? As written it seems disembarking from a WE loses you your activation for the turn, however it's not clear that it is intended for this to be so if the WE is not the active formation.

2) What if the formation were trapped by having 2 enemy units per DC in B2B? I would think since it didn't disembark it wouldn't participate, including for the purposes of BMs, Outnumbering, Inspiring, etc. Not certain though.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

Troops can disembark at the end of any move (broken or not) but cannot take an action of their own.
From 3.1.3 Highlighted relevant parts.

I agree with the above answers.

I do think however that the resulting effects in game are pretty rubbish:

An independent Leviathan carrying 16 stands of infantry breaks after 4 BMs. An in-formation Leviathan carrying 8 stands of infantry breaks after 12 BMs.

An independent Leviathan embarking troops cannot move in the same turn. An in-formation Leviathan embarking troops can move 45 cm that same turn.

etc. etc.

This is grounds for change.

Not to mention that Air transporters get to embark troops at 5 cm, and not Land transporters, without any valid explanation as to why.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

Re: Air transporter embarkation: it's because when the aircraft embarks troops it's on the aircraft's activation, and WEs get boarded on the transported unit's formation. therefore the troops picked up by the AC can't move into base contact.

The potential loss of the WEs activation after embarkation is to prevent abuse. For instance: a formation fights an Engage action, and after winning uses its consolidation move to mount up in a nearby WE that has not activated. The WE then activates, Engaging and disembarking it's cargo who then fight a second offensive engagement. There are probably other ways to game a system that allows the WE to activate after embarkation too. It's frustrating to have to wait to move in a game that only lasts 3-4 turns, but better than the alternative.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

No activation. There is no qualifier based on the kind of move used to dismount.



There is no exception in the combined assault rules for the WE being broken. The formations would still be combined for the duration of the assault. Even if they couldn't disembark, the loaded formation(s) would be included for BM and unit count.

cheers all for the answers

one more thing

would the bezerker formation that dismount a broken WM have any BM or be broken themselves ?

cheers

PAR

( and for Inspiring etc).

*This* is what I was referring to as having been discussed long ago on the old boards.

Thanks Neal, nice to hear from you.

They would take their BMs with them which would determine whether they are broken or not.