Tactical Command
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[rules question] Barrage and normal shooting
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=26265		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  SpeakerToMachines [ Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:  [rules question] Barrage and normal shooting
I have a question about hit allocation too; If a formation fires a mixture of barrage and normal attacks, how are the hits allocated?

Since barrage hits are allocated to "units under the template", and normal shooting hits are allocated "closest to furthest in order", it would seem that it is possible to have units with more than one hit allocated, while others have none?

How do the rest of you play this in practice?
Author:  Ginger [ Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [rules question] Barrage and normal shooting
Place the barrage template and determine which units under the template are actually hit. Then carry out firing with the other "standard" units using AT / AP shots. Allocate these hits front - back as usual, missing out any unit that has already got a hit from the barrage template.

Once all 'normal' hits have been allocated, resolve them as usual.

If any MW hits were rolled, allocate and resolve them at this point.
Author:  Borka [ Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [rules question] Barrage and normal shooting
yeah that's how I have understood it as well.
Author:  SpeakerToMachines [ Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [rules question] Barrage and normal shooting
Thanks, this makes sense.

And if the barrage is MW? Allocate "around" any barrage hits first with normal shooting, then with MW shooting?
Author:  Ginger [ Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [rules question] Barrage and normal shooting
I cannot think offhand of any formation with both normal weapons and MW barrage weapons.
However the answer is similar.

Since shooting is carried out at the same time rather than in separate rounds, IMO you would place the barrage template first (to hit the most units etc). After this you should do all shooting. It is probably easiest to do the MW Barrage shooting first and allocate the MW hits (so you can remove the template).

So carry out normal shooting, allocating front-back including units under the template and resolve them. Finally you resolve the MW hits on the remaining units with MW hits allocated from the MW barrage template.

The only difference here is that the template mechanic results in the MW hits being fixed to given units, so in this case normal hits may kill off units with MW hits allocated, so that MW hit is lost.
Author:  kyussinchains [ Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [rules question] Barrage and normal shooting
I would say that following the normal rules for shooting, you fire all AP/AT shots and make saves/remove models, THEN place the barrage template and roll to hit with the MW shots

for example if you're shooting at a 3 strong formation which entirely fits under the template, you roll your AP/AT shots and remove casualties, then roll MW shots for any remaining units under the template
Author:  MikeT [ Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [rules question] Barrage and normal shooting
(MW) barrage template would have to be placed before any shooting is rolled or resolved so as to maximize units under template. As macroweapon hits are allocated separately to normal AP/AT shooting, whether you role the MW hits before of after normal shooting is kind of immaterial but you can end up with situations where a unit which would have been hit by a macroweapon shot from the barrage instead dies first from normal AP/AT. Resolving AP/AT shooting first then resolving MW shooting on any units left under the template would be the quickest method.


2 post script points:

1) Chaos Desolator is yet another formation (single unit in this case!) which both normal and MW shooting. Ork Gargants of all sizes down to and including the Super Stompa are also included. I'm sure there are a load of other war engines spread over other lists with both normal shooting and MW barrages.

2) I hate the barrage rules and all the fenickety problems they cause; ideally I'd force them to resolve hits front to back as per standard shooting (and thus be subsumed into that step) or, even better, get rid of template weapons entirely.
Author:  Spectrar Ghost [ Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [rules question] Barrage and normal shooting
2) Is how we generally play, even if it is 'wrong'. It just makes so much more sense. I seem to recall it's not an uncommon house rule, either.
Author:  kyussinchains [ Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [rules question] Barrage and normal shooting
I think as in MikeT's second point, use the template to determine the number of shots, then just apply them front to back like regular shooting, prevents barrage sniping and simplifies things, I believe there was some discussion early in the development of the game about doing it this way.... I'm certainly happy to house rule it like that in my games
Author:  Dave [ Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [rules question] Barrage and normal shooting
MikeT wrote:
you can end up with situations where a unit which would have been hit by a macroweapon shot from the barrage instead dies first from normal AP/AT


Neal addressed this, he said to just allocate the MW hit to a similar type of unit. For example, if a Grot was hit by both a regular and MW, and died from the regular, then the MW should go to another Grot. If all the Grotz are dead I think the attacker was out of luck.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [rules question] Barrage and normal shooting
I'd just say the MW hit was lost,like how MWCC hits used to be lost before "flying power fists" were allowed in the living rule book update.
Author:  Ginger [ Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [rules question] Barrage and normal shooting
And the question of the Barrage template mechanics was discussed at length, and ultimately the process was clarified as throwing to hit each unit individually - though you can speed-roll by type.
Allocating the hits front-to-back allows the opponent to avoid hits on key units through positioning them to the rear of formations.
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