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AC landing triggering overwatch? http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=25793 |
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Author: | Dave [ Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:29 pm ] |
Post subject: | AC landing triggering overwatch? |
Does this FAQ apply to AC landing as well? Quote: Q: Does Planetfall trigger Overwatch?
A: Landing does not count as movement for the purposes of triggering enemy overwatch fire. Disembarking triggers overwatch fire as normal. |
Author: | MephistonAG [ Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: AC landing triggering overwatch? |
I'd say no, the AC has activated and made an approach move, so you can over-watch when it lands. Planet falling is the spaceships activation, so the AC hasn't actually completed a move. And as they are speed 0 then when they do activate they can't move so can't be over-watched. |
Author: | Dave [ Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:55 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: AC landing triggering overwatch? |
You're saying that if a formation disembarked then the lander could be fired upon? Just not when it lands? |
Author: | Tiny-Tim [ Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:35 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: AC landing triggering overwatch? |
Dave wrote: Does this FAQ apply to AC landing as well? Quote: Q: Does Planetfall trigger Overwatch? A: Landing does not count as movement for the purposes of triggering enemy overwatch fire. Disembarking triggers overwatch fire as normal. The answer here is no as an empty AC landing would never trigger OW. The early interpretation of the rules allowed for players to fire their OW when they wanted either before disembarking troops or after. This was later changed to disembarkation as being the final part of the move. But as the AC and disembarked units count as the same formation until the end of their activation both maybe shot at. |
Author: | Ginger [ Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:06 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: AC landing triggering overwatch? |
From the FAQ, Section 1.10: Overwatch Quote: Q: When units appear on the table, for example by teleporting, or spawning, or being summoned, do they trigger Overwatch? A: No. Only completing a move or disembarking triggers Overwatch. Also, note that “a move” in the context of Overwatch has been ruled to be a normal ground move. An aerospace move (planetfall or a landing aircraft) does not trigger overwatch, nor does a countercharge move during an assault. Note it does present a slightly odd situation where a transport can land to contest an objective, shoot at some target yet apparently does not trigger OW fire. . . . ![]() And Tim is correct. The main issue being where the air-transport was shot at by AA and then by OW fire which was deemed 'unreasonable', so it was moved to after disembarkation. (foiling the use of death-strikes on OW to destroy air-assaults as they landed . . . . .) |
Author: | Blip [ Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:47 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: AC landing triggering overwatch? |
I understand the game reason (OW deathstrikes etc) but for AC this sound beardy in the extreme. Isn't the "fuffy" interpretation that Planetfall is so fast, surprising and vertical that troops get no chance to fire, where as AC doing a landing are moving at sub-sonic speeds on a roughly horizontal vector ? Ie. AC landing does trigger OW (otherwise it creates Ginger's odd/beardy situation instead : Ginger wrote: it does present a slightly odd situation where a transport can land to contest an objective, shoot at some target yet apparently does not trigger OW fire. . . .
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Author: | zombocom [ Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:32 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: AC landing triggering overwatch? |
AC landing isn't a "move". Troops disenbarking is. As Ginger mentioned, one of the main reasons for this is to avoid overwatching deathstrikes from being able to wipe out thunderhawks before they disembark. |
Author: | MephistonAG [ Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:27 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: AC landing triggering overwatch? |
Must remember to read the FAQ after the rule books... |
Author: | Onyx [ Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:27 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: AC landing triggering overwatch? |
Tiny-Tim wrote: Dave wrote: Does this FAQ apply to AC landing as well? Quote: Q: Does Planetfall trigger Overwatch? A: Landing does not count as movement for the purposes of triggering enemy overwatch fire. Disembarking triggers overwatch fire as normal. The answer here is no as an empty AC landing would never trigger OW. The early interpretation of the rules allowed for players to fire their OW when they wanted either before disembarking troops or after. This was later changed to disembarkation as being the final part of the move. But as the AC and disembarked units count as the same formation until the end of their activation both maybe shot at. I'm with this. |
Author: | Jaggedtoothgrin [ Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:07 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: AC landing triggering overwatch? |
AC landing is not a move? cool. I agree. so can we please finally get rid of this fudging bullspit that is aircraft barges? taa |
Author: | Ginger [ Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:50 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: AC landing triggering overwatch? |
Whoa, hold on there and put away the can-opener please ![]() AC land after making an "approach move", which is still a *move*. However it is not a "Ground move". So to that extent they still "barge" like any other WE. There was a whole lot of discussion way back in the past about what did and did not trigger OW. Ultimately it was decided that a "Ground move" and "disembarking" triggered OW, but not air-transports making an "Approach move" or "Planetfalling". Here is Neal's comments on this point:- nealhunt wrote: Rug wrote: And Overwatch? When the aircraft lands and when troops dismount, or just when troops dismount? Only on the dismount. For a history of this ruling, picture a time when Deathstrike Missile Launchers had the "no line of sight" note instead of the Indirect Fire special ability. Now picture a DS on Overwatch as an enemy aircraft loaded for assault comes onto the board. If the DS can fire before troops dismount, it's basically a 2+ autokill, ultimate air defense (and for ~800 points of SMs, you better believe people were firing both missiles to avoid the risk of a 1). The result was Jervis' FAQ stating that for purposes of OW, only normal ground moves apply as a trigger, because he felt that was a clarification/correction he could make without directly contradicting the RAW. |
Author: | Jaggedtoothgrin [ Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:13 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: AC landing triggering overwatch? |
during an air move, aircraft ignore all ground formations. once it lands, it is no longer moving, and cannot barge there is not some period of their move when half that statement is true and the other half is not. either it's in the air and too ignoring ground units to be barging, or its on the ground, and too being immobile to be barging. it cannot be both "on the ground" enough to barge, but not be on the ground enough to be overwatched. the reverse is not true, of course, it is possible to be overwatched and still not be able to barge (because you end your movement as a ground formation and thus a valid target, and the overwatch triggers at the end of a move, while barging triggers during the move) but any arguement whatsoever about the inability to overwatch aircraft must, by basic logical progression, make it clear that aircraft barging is against the rules. also, can we please stop trotting out the "overwatch against AC needed to stop because of deathstrikes" arguement in defense of non-OW-able AC? if anything, the quote suggests that it should be allowed now. the quote itself clearly mentions that this was before deathstrikes got changed and because of the rules that no longer apply. the current deathstrike rules solve the problem. because you need LoS to your target again. the situation which the ruling was created to defend against no longer exists, so the reason for the ruling is no longer valid. the no OW rule was, as described in that quote, an attempt to change the rules without actually having to directly contradict the rules. so we can therefor Read As Intended, that OW was indeed intended to be able to target aircraft landings. |
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