Tactical Command
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CC Hit Allocation - Rules Question
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Author:  uvenlord [ Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:59 pm ]
Post subject:  CC Hit Allocation - Rules Question
I thought I had this figured out but then I read a FAQ and it became blurry again... :P

Allocating Hits in Engagements

1.12.5 Resolve Attacks
Roll 1D6 for each unit that may attack. Note that Blast markers do not suppress units from formations involved in an assault – it is assumed that the proximity of the enemy means that everyone joins in! Compare the dice roll to the unit’s close combat value if it’s in contact with the enemy, or its firefight value if it’s within
15cm of the enemy but not in base contact. If the dice roll is equal to or greater than the relevant value, then a hit is scored on the enemy. No modifiers ever apply to these dice rolls. Each player allocates the hits and make saving throws in the same manner as they would when allocating hits from shooting. Hits may only be allocated to units that were directly engaged in the combat (i.e., that belonged to the attacking or defending formation and which were within 15cms of the enemy after charge and counter-charge moves were completed)

Question: Can you allocate CC hits on units
1. within 15cms
2. only against units in base to base with an enemy
3. only against units in base to base with the attacking unit i.e. Two Rough Riders (EA+1) attacks two cultists, one each, one Rough Rider rolls snake eyes the other two 6s = only one cultists dies
(in all the examples above I am assuming that you allocate the CC attacks first if it matters as the ones in base to base would be the closest unit for firefight hits also, right now we play using alternative 1 so we just put every hit in one big pile)

Now lets add some flavor, CC MW :)
2.2.6Macro-Weapons
Allocating Hits:
If an attacking formation scores hits both with normal weapons and weapons with the macro- weapon ability,
then the opposing player must allocate and make any saves for the normal hits first, and then allocate and make any saves for the macro-weapon hits. Hits from macro-weapons can only be applied to units that are in a position to be hit by a macro-weapon.

and the FAQ in the Eldar list
5.6 Eldar Forces
78Q:Played a game a few weeks past and we had an interesting Assault. My opponent had his Avatar in the assault and it was killed by a critical when resolving the CC and FF hits but before we resolved the MW attacks from the Avatar and the CYK. Therefore the Avatar never got to take those attacks since it was dead via the effect of the critical. Legal?
A:No. MW hits inflicted by the Avatar were generated before it was destroyed may still be applied to enemy units that were in base contact with the Avatar when it was killed

Next Question: How will this fight turn out?
(The mighty Avatar charges 4 Imperial Guardsmen and gets in base to base contact with 1.)
1. The Avatar uses its attacks in close combat 3xCC2+ and MW2+ slaying the poor Cad in base contact.
2. The Avatar uses its attacks in close combat 3xCC2+ and MW2+ killing 3 guardsmen with the normal attacks then threaten the last one but does not kill him as he is not in base to base.
3. The Avatar uses its 3 normal attacks to FF 4+ hitting one or two guardsmen then buries his spear (MW 2+) in the ground as the guardsman in base to base already is dead when it is time to allocate MW hits.
4. I'm reading it wrong?

Please help me out.
If the FAQ is right then the characters with a power sword (EA+1, MW) is totally useless in an engagement unless he has inspiring as his friends with FF almost always will score one kill and a lot of units with multiple CC attacks would be harder to use...
Author:  Dave [ Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CC Hit Allocation - Rules Question
CC hits from regular units can be allocated to all enemy units with 15cm and LoS of ANY unit.

CC hits from WEs can only be allocated to things in CC with the WE, same goes with WE FF hits (only allocated to things in FF with the WE).

So with a WE you have to decide where your rolling your hits, CC, FF or some split. Note that you can't decide where your extra attacks go, they must be on things in CC or FF depending on if they're (bc) or (15cm) respectively.
Author:  uvenlord [ Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CC Hit Allocation - Rules Question
Ah, quick answer, thanks :)
Quote:
CC hits from regular units can be allocated to all enemy units with 15cm and LoS of ANY unit.

CC hits from WEs can only be allocated to things in CC with the WE, same goes with WE FF hits (only allocated to things in FF with the WE).

So with a WE you have to decide where your rolling your hits, CC, FF or some split. Note that you can't decide where your extra attacks go, they must be on things in CC or FF depending on if they're (bc) or (15cm) respectively.

Sorry if I am thick but the key is that the Avatar is an WE?
If the attacker would have been a Terminator Chaplain in base to base (EA+2, MW) instead, would he be of any use?
Author:  Dave [ Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CC Hit Allocation - Rules Question
Yes, see my first sentence. All CC and FF hits are pooled and are allocated to everything within 15cm and LoS of your units. The only exception to the pooling is WE. WE hits are kept in separate pools, CC and FF, for each WE.

For your Chaplain:

You'd roll your attacks.
Your opponent would allocate your regular hits, closest to furthest
Then your opponent would allocate your MW hits, closest to furthest, on what's left
Author:  MephistonAG [ Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CC Hit Allocation - Rules Question
The terminators hits would be allocated to any unit engaged, bases to first hen front to back as normal. The fact that the avatar is a WE doesmindeednmake all the difference.

Ninja'd by Dave
Author:  uvenlord [ Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CC Hit Allocation - Rules Question
Great! Then we have been playing it right all the time.

Thanks for clearing that for me, now I can sleep tonight :)

EDIT:Now I wish I would have placed my Avatar on a bigger base... ::)
Author:  Ginger [ Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CC Hit Allocation - Rules Question
Drat - others got there first - Here is my 'longer' reply

uvenlord, hit allocation in assault is relatively simple. Units that are not in B-B use FF statistics while those in B-B use their CC statistics, and you throw dice accordingly and count up the hits scored into a "pool of hits". At this point you allocate hits (however scored) from front to back.

MW (and TK) hits are diced for at the same time, but are allocated separately after the 'normal' hits have been allocated and resolved. They are also allocated front to back. As a consequence, a unit might save against a normal hit and then be allocated a MW hit.

Hits against WE are processed slightly differently, being allocated a hit for each DC before moving onto the next unit. IIRC this is true even where the WE has already suffered some damage.

Finally WE in assault work slightly differently again, as they may choose whether to use FF or CC dice. However in this particular case their hits *must* be allocated to the correct type of target.

So, to your questions:-
  1. Hits are allocated to all enemy units within 15cm, irrespective of how they were generated (CC or FF) because they are taken from the "pool of hits"
  2. The Avatar may choose to throw 2x CC dice against the single guardsman in B-B, and 3x FF dice against the other three guardsmen that are not in contact.
  3. Characters in assault are usually placed in 'normal' units, so their Extra Attack is thrown as normal and any hits are added to the relevant "pool". If they are added to a WE (like commissars) then they can only use their EA at the appropriate range (base contact in this case).

And if this sounds a little strange, try thinking of the assault as being a relatively fluid battle where individuals from both sides get mixed up (simulated by the "pool of hits"). However WE are so big that you can reasonably determine whether their opponents are in B-B or not and hits are determined accordingly.
Author:  uvenlord [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CC Hit Allocation - Rules Question
Thanks for the long answer Ginger :), like I said before it was the WE that made me uncertain.

I can accept it and will play like you guys said but it feels wierd that the WE works different.
You can skip the rest if you don't feel like going down this road...:)

Lets say I have 2 Lord of Battle in a formation and my opponent engege one of them in CC with 6 Rough Riders and the other one only manage to get into base to base contact with more than one horse. Now the Riders is lucky and scores 10 hits. Now I distribute their CC hits, 6 on the assaulted Lord and 4 on the other one, right? (the "extra" 2 hits on the second Lord represent the horses running around and getting dirty with their lances rather then being locked down by the first victim.) Now its my "turn" The first Lord is easy, he goes all out on CC attacks, hitting on 2+ (and probobly kills all the Riders, case solved :) ), the other one only has one horse in base to base so he has to divide his attacks, no running around here and the horseman that impaled him with his lance is long gone... ?
Author:  MephistonAG [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CC Hit Allocation - Rules Question
Yep, sounds correct to me. In truth though I'd go with all FF for the second LoB giving you 2 chances to hit every rough rider.
Author:  Ginger [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CC Hit Allocation - Rules Question
You are just about there uvenlord :)

For simplicity, lets say that 5x RR contact the first LoB and only 1x RR contacts the second. Assuming that the RR are placed so that they can be seen by both WE, then basically the LoB each decides whether to throw CC dice against the RR in contact with it, or FF dice against the RR in contact with the other LoB. In this sense they are choosing whether to defend themselves or to 'hose down' their friend.

Effectively this allows you to pick the best assault stats and dice accordingly.

Note that WE block line of sight, so it is possible for a cunning opponent to position the RR (combined with impassable terrain etc) such that one LoB can only apply its hits to a very limited number of RR units . . . which will be killed off "with extreme prejudice" ;D
Author:  uvenlord [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CC Hit Allocation - Rules Question
Hehehe, so lets continue :)

Quote:
Yep, sounds correct to me. In truth though I'd go with all FF for the second LoB giving you 2 chances to hit every rough rider.
True :)

Quote:
You are just about there uvenlord :)

Thanks :)

Quote:
For simplicity, lets say that 5x RR contact the first LoB and only 1x RR contacts the second. Assuming that the RR are placed so that they can be seen by both WE, then basically the LoB each decides whether to throw CC dice against the RR in contact with it, or FF dice against the RR in contact with the other LoB. In this sense they are choosing whether to defend themselves or to 'hose down' their friend.

Effectively this allows you to pick the best assault stats and dice accordingly.

hmmm, but my point is that the RR don't need to chose between defending themselves or helping their friend, their CC attacks hits everything within 15 cm. Also the 2:nd LoB have EA +3, MW that he could have used on all the RR if he wasn't a WE. Also lets say you allocate 2 hits to CC with the LoB and both hits then one would be wasted so the WE attacks is not as good as infantry.

Just had another read of the WE rules :) and the WE FF hits can't be placed on units in base to base so it is almost always better to divide the attacking force in both CC and FF... ::)
Author:  Ginger [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: CC Hit Allocation - Rules Question
uvenlord wrote:
hmmm, but my point is that the RR don't need to chose between defending themselves or helping their friend, their CC attacks hits everything within 15 cm. Also the 2:nd LoB have EA +3, MW that he could have used on all the RR if he wasn't a WE. Also lets say you allocate 2 hits to CC with the LoB and both hits then one would be wasted so the WE attacks is not as good as infantry.

Just had another read of the WE rules :) and the WE FF hits can't be placed on units in base to base so it is almost always better to divide the attacking force in both CC and FF... ::)
Now you have it :)

And the choice of using CC or FF is not always that easy, as it always depends on the particular circumstances. ;)
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