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| Stupid unit question: EpicUK DG Defiler attacks? http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=25370 |
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| Author: | IJW Wartrader [ Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Stupid unit question: EpicUK DG Defiler attacks? |
Epic UK Death Guard list - how many attacks does the Defiler get in close combat? 1 normal plus 1 MW, ignore all mention of the flail. 2 normal (one from the flail) plus 1 MW. On the one hand the flail doesn't mention Extra Attacks, on the other hand, why mention two base contact weapons if one of them does nothing... |
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| Author: | dptdexys [ Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stupid unit question: EpicUK DG Defiler attacks? |
The E-UK Death Guard Defiler has 1 normal attack and 1 MW attack in CC. The Plague Flail is to help show why the DG Defiler has CC 3+ instead of the normal 4+ CC the other E-UK Defilers have. It's similar to the listing of Small Arms and Base Contact weapons such as Lasguns, Bolters and Chainswords etc. |
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| Author: | kyussinchains [ Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stupid unit question: EpicUK DG Defiler attacks? |
base contact weapons are mentioned as it helps to justify the CC value ("oh those guys have chainswords that's why they get CC3+") so a death guard defiler gets one CC3+ attack and one CC3+ MW attack |
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| Author: | IJW Wartrader [ Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stupid unit question: EpicUK DG Defiler attacks? |
Ta. That's how we played it as three 3+ CC attacks seemed a bit OTT. In a future revision of the PDF I strongly suggest that it's changed to 'Battle Claws and Flail' as a single weapon. Otherwise it's an exception to pretty much every other statline in the game, where every new line is a new weapon with it's own attack. It still suggests the better CC roll in a similar way to a 'twin' weapon but doesn't leave room for ambiguity. |
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| Author: | Ulrik [ Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stupid unit question: EpicUK DG Defiler attacks? |
It's not unique - Rough Riders have a similar stat line, Power Lances (EA+1, First Strike) and Chain Swords (nothing). And the rules are explicit, even if it might be slightly unclear: Weapons without Extra Attack modify the basic attack(s) of the unit, while weapons with Extra Attack give, well, extra attacks. There is a rule that gives extra attacks, assuming that any weapon has that rule even if it's not on the stat line isn't the correct way of reading it. |
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| Author: | IJW Wartrader [ Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stupid unit question: EpicUK DG Defiler attacks? |
So they do! I still think it's an unnecessarily ambiguous way of listing it, though. |
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| Author: | IJW Wartrader [ Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stupid unit question: EpicUK DG Defiler attacks? |
P.S. Please take this in the spirit it was meant, of a 'new' player coming in and seeing something that wasn't clear, rather than as an attack. |
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| Author: | dptdexys [ Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stupid unit question: EpicUK DG Defiler attacks? |
IJW Wartrader wrote: In a future revision of the PDF I strongly suggest that it's changed to 'Battle Claws and Flail' as a single weapon. Otherwise it's an exception to pretty much every other statline in the game, where every new line is a new weapon with it's own attack. If having the Flail as an extra statline is causing problems then simply dropping it would have to be the option to take, because having 2 weapons on 1 line would be just as confusing if not more so to new players and itself would be an exception to how statlines have always been listed (one weapon, one line). The statline for the flail only follows the usual procedure, as far as I can tell. I don't remember anyone other than players learning the rules having problems with Lasguns, Bolters, Shootas, Hellguns, Ripper Guns, Choppas, Chainswords, ChainAxes amongst many others which are written in the weapon stats line to explain basic stats without adding extra attacks. There are quite a few other units that have similar stat lines too such as Juggernaughts, World Eater Defilers. I think the Designer notes at the back of the rule book explains better than I can as to why it was done this way. |
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| Author: | IJW Wartrader [ Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stupid unit question: EpicUK DG Defiler attacks? |
'Claws and Fangs' and 'Claws and Teeth' would be precedents for multiple CC weapons being mentioned in one line. It might just be me, but multiple items aggregated into a single line feels a lot more consistent with things like twin ranged weapons being a single line. Anyway, I assume this is a subject that's been done to death in the past and doesn't need rehashing. Are those designer notes in any of the PDFs or only in the printed rulebook? As an aside, is there a list anywhere of what information is in the rulebook but not in the PDFs? |
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| Author: | kyussinchains [ Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Stupid unit question: EpicUK DG Defiler attacks? |
I think its fairly unambiguous, the rulebook explains why small arms/cc weapons are included, it's due to e40k.... People disliked the way weapons were abstracted into simple 'firepower' type terms, so as a way of explaining *why* a certain unit has the stats it does, the weapons were added, even if their attack value is subsumed into the cc value of the unit, for example there is no practical difference between an autocannon and missile launcher, it's all about flavour |
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