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Need help with my Space Marines
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Author:  Overmind [ Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Need help with my Space Marines
Hello guys!!

I've played my very first couple of EA battles (tournament scenario), and I've been completely destroyed in both.

My impression is that Space Marine armies are worse than others. Formations are so tiny that it's very difficult to defeat enemy formations in assaults. Sure, they are highly mobile, and they have very good armour save, but you only need a little of bad luck with the dice rolls, and even the less important shoots can destroy these smalls formations (Assault Detachment: 4 Assault units... Are you kidding me?!?)

My first battle was against an Imperial Guard army, consisting in two Mechanized Infantry Companies, one Tank Co. and several supports, including two Warhounds, an Artillery Battery, some Storm Troopers in Valkyries and 3 Super Heavy tanks (3000 points).

My second battle was again Tyranids. 3 enormous swarms (more than 20 units each), the Dominatrix, a formation of 6 Trigons and other consisting on 6 Haruspex. 3000 points.

It's really hard receiving a charge of more than 20 units (more if they are Termagants or other CC-good troops) with your 6 Tactical Space Marines plus 3 Rhinos.

I need some help, tips, experiences, etc.

PD: My English is not perfect... sorry if any mistakes are founded. ;D

Happy 2013!!!!
Author:  Ginger [ Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need help with my Space Marines
Hello and welcome to the boards

As you gain more experience playing Epic, you will find that each army has it's strengths and weaknesses, and the same is true for individual formations. The best idea for learning the game rules and then some of the better strategies and tactics is to start off playing some of the small scenarios at the end of the main chapters and some small games.

Marines are quite difficult to master (as you have found out) because their formation sizes make them quite brittle. In principle you need to keep the Marine forces close to each other to provide mutual support, and you can try a number of other tactics eg using a "Commander" to combine several formations in one assault, focusing many assaulting units onto a few defenders, ensuring there are other formations in support and above all by 'preparing the target' (ensuring that it has some Blast Markers).

As a trivial example, your Assault Marines want to assault an IG infantry company which is spread out in a line:-
  • If the Marines assault the centre of the line in CC, they are likely to kill 3 Guard and lose 1-2 Marines in reply.
    In the assault resolution at best they are +2 for kills, but the IG are +2 for double outnumbering, so this is a straight dice off or at worst +1 advantage to the IG. Moreover the remaining two Assault Marines are not much good for anything else except contesting objectives.

  • Suppose instead that you have 'prepared the target' (so the IG have a BM) and let the Marines attack two units at one end of the line, reducing the number of IG units that can fight back to 8, and reducing the potential Marine casualties. So, now the Marines end up +1 in the assault resolution and also have more chance of doing something else
    (the IG go into the resolution with +3 for 1 kill and double outnumbering, while the Marines now have +4 for2 kills, no BMs and enemy with BMs).

  • Of course using a 'Commander' to combine two formations of Assault Marines would give a huge advantage by increasing the number of IG killed while reducing their ability to fight back (their CC is weaker than their FF).

Note, the above assumes the IG have been poorly commanded by being put in a line in the open just begging to be wiped out . . . usually they will have a Commisar (giving an additional +1 for an inspiring character), and they will be huddled together in some terrain (which gives them a cover save), so you will have find other ways of improving the odds in your favour - perhaps by providing some support; a formation of Devastators which double to within 15cm and shoot the IG, and can then add their supporting fire to the assault etc.

There are a lot of other tactics to try out, and these vary with the differenc races - so don't get into Close Combat with the 'Nids; the bugs have vicious claws and are just aching to rrriiiipppp your Marines to shreds :D
Author:  Ginger [ Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need help with my Space Marines
One last thought - the Tournament scenario is won or lost on the Victory points, which do not include the number of formations destroyed (only the BTS counts). This means that you can lose most of your army and still win by achieving the various goals - which is where the Marines mobility comes in as they zip around the table contesting the Objectives.
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need help with my Space Marines
I'm also going to assume that you were using the Codex Marines list from the original EA book (or some derivation thereof).
That's pretty much the Marine Air Assault + War Hound a-go-go list and seems from my experiences and reports I've seen on the web to be rather competitive when wielded by a player that has mastered that list. I know from my own horrible butcherings that it's not very forgiving in comparison to the Steel Legion list (or at least seems that way to my limited abilities that perhaps are better masked / accounted for by the SL list).

However the general feel around these parts seems to be that THawk with assault and supporting devs is a risky but powerful air mobile attack combo. Again, I don't know, I play BA and SoI lists and now, that deformed offspring of mutants list, Iron Hands which have a whole different play-style to them 9and even then I still suck at it :D ).
-even when Air Assaulting BA, they tend use different vehicles e.g. Storm Ravens
-Scions of Iron are the tank heavy marines list
-Iron Hands are really the drop pod, dred heavy army that probably should never see the light of day :D

Take a look at the compendium here
There's probably a list that strikes your fancy or play style that you will enjoy. Regardless don't feel bad as EA is a hard game to master, akin to playing chess, and it is any consolation, when I play codex marines I get my clock cleaned. The goal is to keep playing, having fun, and learning!

Also: Welcome aboard!
Author:  Reedar [ Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need help with my Space Marines
Hi Overmind,

Welcome to Taccoms!

EDIT: I should add at this point that I'm an Ork player and have never played AS marines, although I've played against them a lot....!

To expand on the sound advice from Ginger about 'prepping' formations prior to getting in a punch up with them, you also need to ensure your units are within 'supporting fire' range whenever possible.

In an assault (assuming neither side gets wiped out completely) you can also use any units that you have nearby (up to 15cms) and FF with them too. This can often mean you're doubling the amount of damage you do.

For example; you've got an imperial guard company you want to attack.
First of all you move your Tactical formation up close to them (10cms) and shoot with your normal ranged firepower. This puts as blast marker on them, plus more for any casualties inflicted.
Then you retain the initiative and engage with your Assault formation. Work out damage as normal with your CC value.
Now, assuming your assault marines didn't all die, you can also use the nearby tactical formations firefight too, allowing you to throw and extra 9 (6 tactical and 3 rhino) firefight attacks.
Not only have you likely doubled the amount of casualties inflicted, but you also 'prepped' the assault meaning that when you come to work out the resolution the guard had blast markers and you had none.

Dice can always go against you, but at least you've stacked the odds in your favour as best you can.


Another point to reinforce, marine formations need to work together. If you spread out then you'll be picked apart comfortably. In fairness this is true of any army, although marines suffer more than most as each formation carelessly discarded can have a big impact on your chances of victory.

Hope this helps/makes sense!

Cheers
Redcar
Author:  enri [ Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need help with my Space Marines
jimmyzimms wrote:
However the general feel around these parts seems to be that THawk with assault and supporting devs is a risky but powerful air mobile attack combo.


Can confirm that it's hilarious fun air assaulting with an assault detachment w/ chaplain and devastators w/ librarian. I enjoyed it anyway :)

Adding to the advice above...

Space marines have the speed to dictate where the fighting takes place

Use that speed to your advantage and pick your fights carefully and only assault when you're confident you can win and/or can prep the opposition for assault as mentioned above. Don't want to get into an assault with that big stompy death unit that's pretty much sat on your blitz? Then don't, run away and come back later on.

I learned this the hard way in my first game vs planetfalling world eaters, they dropped from a spaceship and landed near my blitz. My reaction? Assault! I threw a terminator detachment, tactical detachment and some scouts into the fray only to have them torn to shreds in turn 1. If I'd thought it through, I should have just moved them well away until I could get some support on the board, the planetfalling troops had no transport so wouldn't be able to give chase anyway so wouldn't be a threat.

Get the most out of your detachments

Think of it this way, to use the tactical detachment from Redcar's example, on their own they cost 300 points. You activate and put out a bunch of shots with them, if they're not in a position to support an assault, deter opposition assaults, etc. then you've only got that single activation out of their points cost for that turn. IF you get them into a position where they can ALSO lend support to an assault then they've just become more valuable and you're getting more bang for your buck so to speak.

Don't lose sight of the objectives

As Ginger said, the tourney scenario is won on objectives.. you could spend the entire game avoiding fights and grab a bunch of objectives in turn 3 to win. Not likely to happen but it highlights that you should always be thinking about the objectives, not how much damage you can put out.. yes I'm sure it'll be fun knocking out your opponents prized titan / gargant, but is it going to help in grabbing an objective?

Don't commit too early, play cagey

This goes back to the first point about dictating the fight. Don't be afraid to hold back terminators, thunderhawk ground assaults, etc. - it's likely better to keep your opponent on his toes knowing that you have a hefty assault savvy unit or two in reserve ready to plonk down than throw them into the fray early on and get them butchered without support. Plus throwing down a handful of terminator detachments on the start of turn 3 is always good to get your opponent sweating.

Think I've repeated a few points from above, but added my own thoughts to it too, hope that helps :)

ninja edit: I should mention that I'm yet to win a game with SM, but it's beginning to come together and I feel like my understanding of how they play is vastly improved from that first game I played with them.
Author:  kyussinchains [ Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need help with my Space Marines
also remember when you set up a clipping assault that the enemy has to countercharge towards the nearest enemy which can be your prep+support formation, as long as they can't actually contact them and therefore drag them into combat, you can ensure that your engaging formation never gets ganged up on

Also it has to be said that the main strength of the marines is air-assault, and most successful lists tend to include a couple of thunderhawks, some terminators, a spaceship and drop-podding troops, as well as warhounds, it's possible to build a solid ground-pounding list, but it will be harder to win with
Author:  Overmind [ Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need help with my Space Marines
First of all, thank you everybody.

I'm glad to see that my first thought was correct: Space Marines are a very hard army to master. Some of the tactics you have written have been tryed by myself yet (I'm experienced in other wargames, such as warhammer fantasy and 40k, so I could imagine some of them). Of course, I have lots of work to improve my ability...

This is the army I played last time (against Tyranids, 3000 points, no aircrafts allowed):
- Tactical detachment with supreme commander and 2 Vindicators + 3 Rhinos
- Tactical detachment with 2 Vindicators + 3 Rhinos
- Tactical detachment + 3 Rhinos
- Terminator detachment + Librarian
- 1 Warhound
- Land Raider Detachment
- Whirlwind detachment
- Assault detachment
- Land Speeder detachment
- Bike detachment, 4 Bikes + 1 Assault Bike

One of the most frustrating things is that Temagants (Infiltrators) could easily reach contact with the Vindicators... I supose I didn't thought it when designing the army. Dreads would have been better, I don't know...

Any sugestions to improve the army desing?
Author:  kyussinchains [ Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need help with my Space Marines
maybe drop the land raiders..... they're overpriced and underpowered IMO (Although iconic) preds are cheaper and fulfil many of the same roles, exchange one or two tactical detachments for devastators, better firepower and fewer points, stick vindicators with the assault marines to support their assaults and give them some cover while they're moving, as well as the ability to shoot things

dreadnoughts tend to work best in drop pods as they're slow and can't travel in rhinos.... I've heard it said that 2 dreads with a devastator formation in pods is quite a good choice, one fire support dread and one combat dread works quite well, you can then BTB FF units with a dread, and hug the dreads for cover....
Author:  Ginger [ Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need help with my Space Marines
I would suggest several things.
  • Drop the Land Raiders, add a second Terminator formation.
  • Use a Chaplain rather than Librarian (inspiring in assault +1)
  • Use Land Speeders instead of Bikes (skimmer allows then to force FF in combat).
    Also they have MW weaponry
  • I would probably drop the Whirlwinds in favour of a second Warhound
  • Devastators on OW can prove an interesting defensive force, and is the only place to try Dreadnoughts, though I agree with Reedar that this may be a very 'brave' choice and one you may not repeat - though this choice as many others depends on your strategy, and may suit your style of play.
  • Vindicators are probably not the best choice of upgrade for the Tacticals because they tend to restrict their movement range. Razorbacks are cheaper, faster and greater ranged - and they have transport

Also, in Epic, you will find that forces tend to work better where you have several formations of the same type working together eg two Warhounds, as then you can play to their strengths (lots of shooting), Terminations can teleport either side of a target formation one shoots and the other assaults (check out cross fire, which is even more true for Land Speeders)

Use Commander to combine several formations - the Supreme commander can also re-roll. Try staying inside your Rhinos so you can use them to extend your assault range. Try to set up formations at the end of each turn so you can use them to advantage at the start of the following turn (when you can reasonably expect to win the strategy roll) etc.

Keep playing, an do your best to learn from your opponents - keep at it and you will improve.

However, as Jimmy said, above all have fun
Author:  robbypk [ Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Need help with my Space Marines
I've gotten to the point where I'm about 50/50 with my marines, and here are my thoughts:

Just as Kyu and ginger said, Land Raiders are really overpriced, I'd drop them.

Land speeders! Their ability to spread out, move fast, MW shot, and ability to ZoC the enemy can really make them a pain in the ass for your opponent to deal with. I usually take two units of speeders.

Going right along with land speeders, the abilities of scouts is not to be taken lightly. If you can ZoC a powerful enemy unit, he has to either spend that unit's activation dealing with a small 150 pt unit, or spend another unit's activation to deal with them. Also, scouts can surround and protect your more expensive and dangerous units such as warhounds or whirlwinds.

Stack the odds in your favor as much as you can, wherever you can. Put a chaplain in with your terminators for +1 in combat resolution and teleport them in on turn 2 to either shore up a weak point in your lines or take anvantage of an opportunity in your opponent' lines. Given the SM high strategy, your terminators will likely be able to go first and hit whatever they were aiming at. Assuming that you don't roll badly for BM when teleporting in, and assuming the target is prepped (blast markers on them), that's four attacks that hit on 3+ and five MW attacks that also hit on 3+....that can stop an enemy in his tracks and make him rethink everything.

I'm a big fan of the air assets for SM. One negative of terminators is that after they hit wherever they hit on he board, they aren't very mobile after that. But if you have a Thunderhawk handy, it can swoop in at he end of turn 2 and pick up terminators, then on turn 3 the Thawk can land wherever needed and drop the terminators off for another brutal assault.

I'd also include at least one unit of thunderbolts....simply for the ability to drop BM on an opponent anywhere on the board to prep an assault.

Lastly, don't forget about the crossfire rule. If you can get a unit into position behind the enemy so a more shooty unit such as predators can take advantage.....that really can help.

Now, having said all that, I gotta say that IMO you not playing a fair game against the tyranids. It's my personal opinion that the bugs are not yet a fair list. They are too tough and to powerful for their cost, and I think the list needs to be refined. And by not allowing aircraft (which the bugs don't have, anyway), you are really limiting your own options while allowing your opponent the freedom to not have to worry about attacks fom above at all.
Author:  Overmind [ Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need help with my Space Marines
It seems everybody agreed in the overcosted Land Raiders. I use the nearest NetEA army list, so each Land Raider cost 75 points... Is it so much?

I think Land Raiders are very versatile (specially good against AV, but sill decent when targeting INF), and pretty well armoured. Why do you prefer Predators?

Another thing is about the aircrafts: we are trying to learn, so aircrafts seem too complicated. Next battle I'll include a pair of air-formations... O0

And, finally, about the Land Speeders: I realized they are very good, specially against Tyranids (many of them don't have FF value at all, and in any case they usually have a much better CC). I think the normal Land Speeder is the best, but I have to try the others.

Again, thank you everybody.
Author:  kyussinchains [ Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need help with my Space Marines
predators are a bit faster than land raiders, do much the same job (better in the case of pure AT or AP if you use formations all of one tyoe) and cost a bit less, they can also be transported in a landing craft so can planetfall or be zipped around the table rapidly
Author:  Ginger [ Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need help with my Space Marines
Yup - Preds are vulnerable against forces with a lot of AT capability, but otherwise rock against Light vehicles and infantry. Their speed also makes them a candidate for setting up or using Crossfire against slower opponents. That said, some 'Nids get to infiltrate on a speed of 20cm - which makes the 45cm shooting achievable, but a fine judgement.

Preds will tend to die against armies with reasonable artillery or AT (like the IG Leman Russ) because they are out-ranged and under-armoured and brittle (usually only 4x units), so are a sub-optimal choice in a tournament list where the opposing races and lists are generally not known. Against these opponents they need to be used in a defensive role (on OW behind terrain) or in conjunction with several other formations to set up crossfire, support assaults etc, with the remnants being used to contest objectives etc (though IMO Assault Marines are often better at this as they are cheaper, slightly faster and can make better use of terrain).
Author:  Epaminondas [ Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Need help with my Space Marines
Does one Reaver or two warhounds work better with Marines?
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