Tactical Command
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Phoenix Lords in EPIC
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23637
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Author:  novemberrain [ Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Phoenix Lords in EPIC

Hi guys,

I have been sat on some stats for Phoenix Lords in EPIC for a while now and thought I would post them up. Be aware these are not supposed to be used in tournaments etc, but are aimed for scenario and friendly play. As such they currently have no points costs, but it would be helpful if people suggested ones!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1z8o ... VsKxQ/edit

Cheers and let me know what you think.

Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix Lords in EPIC

Quote:
let me know what you think.

They do look extremely powerful.

I'd tend to suggest applying unique special rules to just the Phoenix Lord's Unit, rather than the whole formation.

Do they have a rule in 40k that boosts the power of every one of their aspects on the table?
I'm not overly familiar with the Phoenix Lords.

Author:  jimmyzimms [ Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix Lords in EPIC

I also need to point out that the closest Epic equivalent to an entire 40k game is a single Engage action by a formation. 40k rules that effect the whole type of unit in a game have a dubious equivalence at Epic scales. Leader special ability and that have some pretty fearsome FF/CC values, as appropriate, would probably be better IMO. I have NO 40k knowledge of the PL and their abilities mind you, just pointing out the closest "like" thing between the scales as a useful mental model (as described by Lord Jervis in the original designer notes in the EA book)

Author:  novemberrain [ Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix Lords in EPIC

Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
let me know what you think.

They do look extremely powerful.

I'd tend to suggest applying unique special rules to just the Phoenix Lord's Unit, rather than the whole formation.

Do they have a rule in 40k that boosts the power of every one of their aspects on the table?
I'm not overly familiar with the Phoenix Lords.


Thanks for the feedback.

In 40k they do not boost their aspects, but it seems this is a pretty solid chunk of their fluff and I thought it would provide a good way for them to stand out at the epic scale, making them at least different from the exarchs. Admittedly some of the buffs are not balanced against each other at the moment, with some being much more useful than others!

jimmyzimms wrote:
I also need to point out that the closest Epic equivalent to an entire 40k game is a single Engage action by a formation. 40k rules that effect the whole type of unit in a game have a dubious equivalence at Epic scales. Leader special ability and that have some pretty fearsome FF/CC values, as appropriate, would probably be better IMO. I have NO 40k knowledge of the PL and their abilities mind you, just pointing out the closest "like" thing between the scales as a useful mental model (as described by Lord Jervis in the original designer notes in the EA book)


But doesn't this just reduce them to the level of an exarch? How fearsome can close combat stats really be before they become like chaos beserkers? At the moment most of the buffs that the phoenix lords give are pretty engagement focused so would match up well with 40k = an engagement.

Thanks for replying :)

Author:  Ginger [ Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix Lords in EPIC

Hmm, this provides an intruiging set of ideas - obviously onyy for 'fan' or fun games rather than tournaments.

I think it might work as a concept because I think the Eldar lists will tend to be self-limiting for the following reasons:-
  1. Eldar generally work best when they have an activation advantage, and the use of aspect formations tends to work against this. At 300+ per formation the actual number of character led aspect formations will be limited.
  2. Monotone aspects are generally less usefull, and so the impact of character led formations will be reduced
  3. I would suggest that the cost of the character is 50 points and must replace an Exarch (so +75 points per character). This will further reduce the number of such characters.
  4. I note that you have wisely refrained from providing a Warp Spider character - these are already the best aspects and have no need of an additional upgrade.

Have you actually tried using them in an Eldar list?

Author:  jimmyzimms [ Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix Lords in EPIC

novemberrain wrote:
But doesn't this just reduce them to the level of an exarch? How fearsome can close combat stats really be before they become like chaos beserkers? At the moment most of the buffs that the phoenix lords give are pretty engagement focused so would match up well with 40k = an engagement.


Oh sorry I wan't really making myself clear there. My intention was that the benefits should be less passively for the entire formation always and more combinations of special abilities (preferentially to the the PL stand itself) and more targeted to applicability to being used in Engagements as opposed to just always ON. Judicious use of appropriate FF/CC stats should be used to balance these abilities and represent them as a powerful stand so you don't go overboard, that's all :).

Good idea that I'd like to see some more thoughts on to see about getting it fully baked. :)

Author:  novemberrain [ Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix Lords in EPIC

Ginger wrote:
Hmm, this provides an intruiging set of ideas - obviously onyy for 'fan' or fun games rather than tournaments.

I think it might work as a concept because I think the Eldar lists will tend to be self-limiting for the following reasons:-
  1. Eldar generally work best when they have an activation advantage, and the use of aspect formations tends to work against this. At 300+ per formation the actual number of character led aspect formations will be limited.
  2. Monotone aspects are generally less usefull, and so the impact of character led formations will be reduced
  3. I would suggest that the cost of the character is 50 points and must replace an Exarch (so +75 points per character). This will further reduce the number of such characters.
  4. I note that you have wisely refrained from providing a Warp Spider character - these are already the best aspects and have no need of an additional upgrade.
Have you actually tried using them in an Eldar list?


1) I was working on the idea that these characters would end up adding around 100pt to an aspects formation, which would make them 400+pts with no transports or 600+pts with Wave serpents. In comparison to say a revenant pair I think they would be a serious investment to make and would probably only appear once in a normal sized list (3-4k?).
2) I deliberately went for monochrome aspects both fluff wise and so that those aspects that are rarely used *cough* Banshees *cough* might actually see the table.
3) Warp Spiders do not have a Phoenix Lord atm, nor do Shining Spears.
4) Not yet, but I will be when I get back to work in October. I wanted to get some rough stats worked out prior to trying them out.

jimmyzimms wrote:
novemberrain wrote:
But doesn't this just reduce them to the level of an exarch? How fearsome can close combat stats really be before they become like chaos beserkers? At the moment most of the buffs that the phoenix lords give are pretty engagement focused so would match up well with 40k = an engagement.


Oh sorry I wan't really making myself clear there. My intention was that the benefits should be less passively for the entire formation always and more combinations of special abilities (preferentially to the the PL stand itself) and more targeted to applicability to being used in Engagements as opposed to just always ON. Judicious use of appropriate FF/CC stats should be used to balance these abilities and represent them as a powerful stand so you don't go overboard, that's all :).

Good idea that I'd like to see some more thoughts on to see about getting it fully baked. :)


Thanks for the feedback.
I am a bit torn on the formation effecting abilities (and I realise they are not balanced between themselves atm) but they do seem to match up to the fluff quite well, as well as their 40k rules - e.g. Karandras provides Stealth to any unit he joins etc. I feel that once a stand gets up beyond EA+2 MW in either FF or CC there really is little difference, and it can potentially become quite unbalanced if extra attacks or special rules are applied. Also given that the Phoenix Lords are restricted to units solely made up of thier own aspects, these buffs might make them more attractive compared to a pick-and-mix formation.

Author:  Irisado [ Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Phoenix Lords in EPIC

Just to clarify that Phoenix Lords do boost their own Aspect in 40K, assuming they have powers which affect other models, but only the squad which the Lord is attached to.

Having the Phoenix Lord replace the Exarch in Epic from a background point of view doesn't make a great deal of sense, as both could easily be part of the same formation. If it's a question of balance, then that's fair enough, but would it not be better to find some way of making the Phoenix Lords balanced enough, so that they could be combined with an Exarch?

Another option worth considering might be limiting Phoenix Lords to one per army in Epic, as while this limitation doesn't exist in 40K, I've never seen multiple Phoenix Lords in the same force.

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