Tactical Command
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Countercharges and drawing in to assault
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=22658		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Tiny-Tim [ Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Countercharges and drawing in to assault
You played it correctly Hena
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Countercharges and drawing in to assault
Yes, he can.

Seems risky unless the first round had a high modifier and the tie was the result of a poor die roll. Obviously, adding new defenders increases unit count and, since the defender countercharges after the attacker in the follow-up round, the newly drawn in formation would have a chance to countercharge and potentially bring even more units into range/LoS to attack.
Author:  reisoleil [ Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Countercharges and drawing in to assault
Hi everyone! Nice forums you have here.

Me and a friend were playing a match between my Space Marines and his Orks. A situation came up in which I tried to assault his air dropped bikes with my devastator squad. The master plan was that I would charge one unit into range (15 cm), kill one of his bikes and win the assault with blast markers and some lucky dice throwing (it was a last ditch effort as you may guess). As it happens, I had forgotten about a lone razorback next to the bikes. He countercharged, and as the razorback was closer to the bikes he moved towards it and away from my devastators according to the rules. After his countercharge my devastators were outside of FF range. The bikes of course destroyed the razorback, he won the assault, and broke the devastators.

Questions:

1) I'm under the impression that the countercharge move has to be towards the closest enemy, but there is no need to move the full 5/10 cm. Is this true?

2) Rulebook says, under 1.12.5: "If all of the attacking units directly engaged in the assault are killed then the assault has stalled and the defender wins", Should the defender (the bikes) win outright because they destroyed the only directly involved attacker (the razorback) and autobreak the marines which were only "indirectly involved"?

OR

The rules also say under the same paragraph: "If even one of the original attacker that were within 15 cm of the enemy survives, then the attack has not stalled". The devastators were the original attackers, and they _were_ within 15 cm of the enemy and they survived, so the attack didn't stall and it goes to the dice?

If I recall we played it so that the assault didn't stall, and threw the dice. This might lead to some strange (hypothetical) situations, where I charge within 15 cm, he countercharges the opposite way 10 cm and kills whatever is there, there's a tie for some reason, another round comes along and there's 25 cm between the formations.
Author:  nealhunt [ Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Countercharges and drawing in to assault
reisoleil wrote:
Hi everyone! Nice forums you have here.

Thanks, and welcome aboard.

Quote:
The master plan was that I would charge one unit into range (15 cm), kill one of his bikes and win the assault with blast markers and some lucky dice throwing (it was a last ditch effort as you may guess).

Just FYI, this tactic is usually referred to as a "clipping" assault, and can be devastatingly effective if the attacker can stack up a lot of FF power in range while minimizing what the defender can shoot back.

Quote:
As it happens, I had forgotten about a lone razorback next to the bikes. He countercharged, and as the razorback was closer to the bikes he moved towards it and away from my devastators according to the rules. After his countercharge my devastators were outside of FF range. The bikes of course destroyed the razorback, he won the assault, and broke the devastators.

The explanation of this depends on some details. Did the bikes make base contact with the Razorback or did they simply move towards it and away from the Devs?

If yes, the Razorback was drawn in and became directly involved in the assault.

If they bikes didn't actually contact the Razorback, then it would still have been support and not been directly involved. There would have been no directly involved forces, i.e. no attackers or defenders within 15cm range.

I'd have to double-check the book (which is currently offline) but I believe that means the Engage action stops. That would be different from a "stall" because the stall happens as a result of shooting/kills. If there is nothing in Engage range, then the shooting never starts and the action simply ends.

Quote:
1) I'm under the impression that the countercharge move has to be towards the closest enemy, but there is no need to move the full 5/10 cm. Is this true?

Correct.

Quote:
2) Rulebook says, under 1.12.5: "If all of the attacking units directly engaged in the assault are killed then the assault has stalled and the defender wins", Should the defender (the bikes) win outright because they destroyed the only directly involved attacker (the razorback) and autobreak the marines which were only "indirectly involved"?

Yes.

Quote:
The rules also say under the same paragraph: "If even one of the original attacker that were within 15 cm of the enemy survives, then the attack has not stalled". The devastators were the original attackers, and they _were_ within 15 cm of the enemy and they survived, so the attack didn't stall and it goes to the dice?

The "within 15cm" for determining involvement is after all charges and countercharges, i.e. at the point when you start making attacks. As noted, that means the Razorback is the only involved enemy formation and the attack would stall.

Quote:
If I recall we played it so that the assault didn't stall, and threw the dice. This might lead to some strange (hypothetical) situations, where I charge within 15 cm, he countercharges the opposite way 10 cm and kills whatever is there, there's a tie for some reason, another round comes along and there's 25 cm between the formations.

Even though it wouldn't happen in the situation you describe, it is entirely possible to end up with all units in range on both sides dying without triggering a stall.

In the case of a tie it is possible that after second round countercharges no units are in range to attack, either because of kills or because a support formation drew the target formation away from the fight (in a situation like you describe). In that case, you would "fight" a second round without any actual attacks and roll the resolution.
Author:  reisoleil [ Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Countercharges and drawing in to assault
Thanks for the clarifications Neal.

I just want to make one more thing clear. In the above situation the bikes did indeed contact the razorback, and it became directly involved. If the bikes did not manage to kill the razorback in CC or FF, but it was then killed with supporting fire, would the assault resolve normally i.e. go to the dice? If so, would the original charging formation (the devastators) contribute their unit strength and blast markers to the assault resolution roll, even though they are over 15 cm away from any directly involved units?

Completely off topic, how long do your games last? Just a normal 3000 point game with setup. I'm just asking because the last two games we've had to cut it short after the first turn and six hours. Hopefully it'll get faster with time.
Author:  nealhunt [ Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Countercharges and drawing in to assault
reisoleil wrote:
If the bikes did not manage to kill the razorback in CC or FF, but it was then killed with supporting fire, would the assault resolve normally i.e. go to the dice? If so, would the original charging formation (the devastators) contribute their unit strength and blast markers to the assault resolution roll, even though they are over 15 cm away from any directly involved units?

Yes, and yes.

Quote:
Completely off topic, how long do your games last?

If you have experienced players who are motivated to play, 3000 points should come in under 3 hours. Most tournaments allot around 3, including setup and teardown.

But who cares, if you're having fun?
Author:  Simulated Knave [ Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Countercharges and drawing in to assault
I did a 2500-odd point batrep with a first-time player in about four hours, so 3000 points should not be taking you six for the first turn.
Author:  Blindhorizon [ Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Countercharges and drawing in to assault
nealhunt wrote:
Just FYI, this tactic is usually referred to as a "clipping" assault, and can be devastatingly effective if the attacker can stack up a lot of FF power in range while minimizing what the defender can shoot back.


I have a question about this neal. So lets say you stack 5 stands in FF range and they only have 2. You score 4 hits and 3 don't save. Here's the question: are the two enemy stands in range the only thing to die or is it 3 stands total even if they aren't in FF?
Author:  Borka [ Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Countercharges and drawing in to assault
Blindhorizon wrote:
nealhunt wrote:
Just FYI, this tactic is usually referred to as a "clipping" assault, and can be devastatingly effective if the attacker can stack up a lot of FF power in range while minimizing what the defender can shoot back.


I have a question about this neal. So lets say you stack 5 stands in FF range and they only have 2. You score 4 hits and 3 don't save. Here's the question: are the two enemy stands in range the only thing to die or is it 3 stands total even if they aren't in FF?


It's only the two stands within FF range that can get hits allocated to them so it's only they who can die.

Below is from the rulebook section 1.12.5 Resolve Attacks
Quote:
Hits may only be allocated to units that were directly
engaged in the combat (i.e., that belonged to the attacking or
defending formation and which were within 15cms of the
enemy after charge and counter-charge moves were
completed).
Author:  Blindhorizon [ Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Countercharges and drawing in to assault
Thanks Borka! I've read the rules a couple times and forget, i think i remember stuff better when i think about it and ask. Thanks for your quick response.
Author:  Borka [ Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Countercharges and drawing in to assault
Blindhorizon wrote:
Thanks Borka! I've read the rules a couple times and forget, i think i remember stuff better when i think about it and ask. Thanks for your quick response.


:) Glad to be of help
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