Tactical Command
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Confusing Profiles
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=22424		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Curis [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:08 am ]
Post subject:  Confusing Profiles
I find the profiles for Epic really confusing. Especially when showing new players. Has there ever been a push to, not change them, but tighten up how they're presented?

Problem 1 - shot numbers

Number of shots sometimes given by Weapon stat, other times in Firepower stat. It's inconsistent.

2x Autocannon AP5+/AP6+
Autcannons 2x AP5+/AP6+


Problem 2 - Small Arms

New players are confused if units without a weapon listed as Small Arms can Firefight. Can we not just assume units can Firefight if they have a Firefight value, rather than needing a weapon with a Small Arms in the Firepower column?


Problem 3 - Notes

Two sets of notes - one for the weapons and one for the unit. Makes it difficult writing single-column stats for reference sheets.


Problem 4 - Reinforced Armour

New players look for a their saving throw in the Armour column, and miss their unit has Reinforced Armour as that's given in the notes. Can we mention Reinforced Armour in the Armour columm? Like asterix the value or add 5+ RA?


Problem 5 - Thick Rear Armour

Same issue with Thich Rear Armour.


Problem 6 - Invulnerable Saves

And invulnerables.


Problem 7 - Macro-weapon Extra Attacks

New players get the impression that units like Terminators get two CC attacks each counting as Macro-weapons. Not sure how to combat this.


Problem 8 - pluses

There are lots of redundant pluses in the stat lines. Can the Armour et al simply not be expressed as "5"?
Author:  mango2 [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Confusing Profiles
Hena wrote:
Curis wrote:
Problem 1 - shot numbers

Number of shots sometimes given by Weapon stat, other times in Firepower stat. It's inconsistent.

2x Autocannon AP5+/AP6+
Autcannons 2x AP5+/AP6+

There is a difference on how to use those stats. If the multiplier is in front of weapon, both weapons can use different attack types. If it is in the firepower value, they have to use same. So in first case you can fire in three ways: 2 AP; 1 AP and one AT; 2 AT. In second you can fire two ways: 2 AT or 2 AP. So changing units stats would affect game.



Ahh thats interesting to know, never thought of that


Hena wrote:
Curis wrote:
Quote:
Problem 4 - Reinforced Armour
New players look for a their saving throw in the Armour column, and miss their unit has Reinforced Armour as that's given in the notes. Can we mention Reinforced Armour in the Armour columm? Like asterix the value or add 5+ RA?

Problem 5 - Thick Rear Armour
Same issue with Thich Rear Armour.

Problem 6 - Invulnerable Saves
And invulnerables.

Clumping these together to answer all. While this is doable in many cases I'll throw couple out there to point out problems with this. One is space, if unit has TRA, RA and Inv you need a lot of space for that. Space Marine Character in LR would have all three. Second problem one is that Characters can add these abilities to units. Would it be convenient then to have +Inv in Characters sheet to represent that?


I like this idea, it could even be shortened to just 4+T or 5+I. I might even use that for the cheat cards I am doing up to help remember those unit bonuses

Thanks for the post Curis, always good to get different opinions on things
Author:  Apocolocyntosis [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Confusing Profiles
I like the idea with armour and it should save space overall, but then where does it end? Following such a path, movement speed should also say 'skimmer' or 'jump pack' next to it, rather than in the notes?

4+, 4‡, 4*, 4+

20cm^ (skimmer) 20cm∞ (jump pack) … you end up with a lot of symbols or letters

*edit, although if you get rid of the 'cm' on speed, that would work well with initials or symbols and save space … hmm
Author:  AgeingHippy [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Confusing Profiles
As a (newish) player who has had to figure out the rules with other newish players and this forum, I would like to assure you you will eventually get to know these things, or know to look for them.

I think you are asking for stats that are listed to be placed elsewhere. That could mean that the armour column (for example) could become overcrowded with loads of other items...

As Apocolocyntosis states, where do you draw a line with the modified list? Do you place skimmer and walker in the range column for example? Sustain Fire in the weapon column?

You (or other new players) will eventually get there. Have faith :)
Author:  enri [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Confusing Profiles
I think Curis has a point with showing the game to newbies, could be worth investing some time in those detachment stat cards from another thread and combining it with the minigeddon rules to form a new players starter pack, throw in some pre-fabricated 'missions' with set forces like the training scenarios from the rulebook... Everything they need spelt out in bright bold colours, kind of eases them into the vague black and white stat lists and still gives them a good taste of what epic is all about :)
Author:  Apocolocyntosis [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Confusing Profiles
On number 7, when i started i also had this problem, but this was because i was used to how such weapons effected combat stats in 40k.

The issue combines with point 3 (two sets of notes), but i cannot think of a better way of doing it (aside from increasing the level of abstraction by a step). Since weapons do have specific special rules that do not change the special rules for other weapons/the mini as a unit, they need to be separated from the unit special rules, otherwise it is even more confusing.

A small grammatical/syntax change might help a bit by removing the comma/shuffling order of the Macro weapon, Extra attack (+1), (MW, EA(+1)) format. '+1 macro weapon attack' (+1 MW A) would seem to make more sense to me, as the comma was separating the MW from the EA, minor rephrasing might give more of a sense of ownership between the MW and the EA?
Author:  kyussinchains [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Confusing Profiles
on problem 7, the rulebook categorically states that MW only applies to the extra attacks under the rules for macro weapons in an assault, so this is the default unless specified otherwise in the unit entry (fire dragons for example)
Author:  adam77 [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Confusing Profiles
4+RA

6+Inv

4+RA,TR

3+MW,+1, 2+TK3

20cmSkim

30cmJump
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Confusing Profiles
Of those, I'd say #2 and #7 get relatively consistent questions. I can't recall many, if any, complaints on the other items.
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Confusing Profiles
I think for the most part, you don't need to micromanage all the special abilities.

Just put an asterisk next to the movement or armour, if it's got a special note.

So, Terminators and Land Raiders would have an asterisk next to armour, and Dreadnoughts and Land Speeders would have an asterisk next to their speeds.

Essentially, just a catch-all "look in the notes, this thing acts special for this characteristic".

Morgan Vening
Author:  madd0ct0r [ Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Confusing Profiles
Dobbsy will love you all.
Author:  Curis [ Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Confusing Profiles
Morgan, I really like the asterixing of the stats to cover a slew of extra abilities. Simple and elegant. I'm going to adopt it on my homebrew reference sheets.
Author:  madd0ct0r [ Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Confusing Profiles
To be honest, I think I will too, but I guess this will NOT be implemented in the compedium typos...
Author:  Curis [ Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Confusing Profiles
We could ask for lots of asterxies.

We'd get some: "No, you c***!"
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