Do you have a spaceship? Planetfall could be fun
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| Space Marine Air Attack http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=22084 |
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| Author: | charliemachina [ Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Space Marine Air Attack |
I'm due to have a game Space Marines against Siege Guard. He will undoubtedly have anti-air in the form of Hydras in his formations, a strong line of Fortifications and both objectives in his deployment zone (As per our campaign senario). I will have two thunderhawks one carrying full load of assualt marines and characters, one carrying devestators. A Space marine landing craft full of tactical marines and razor backs. I have a vague familurality with these rules and an idea of some tactics but advice would be appreciated. I'm thinking Devestators into an building with a good field of fire of the fortified line to chip away at them concentrating on the flank that is not subject to my main attack. Landing craft and Tacticals landing behind the fortified line and attacking one flank with the Thunderhawk and assualt troops attacking the same flank then both combined forces rolling up the siege guard line. I know Thunderhawk and Landing Craft can make attack runs but I don't want them shredded by anti air fire. Is it worth leaving them to provide fire support form the ground can they even fire from the ground. Should I prioritise my main assualt on tanks or infantry.....I'm thinking a tank unit is the greater threat. cheers Charlie |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Space Marine Air Attack |
Aircraft can fire from the ground. As long as you don't disengage in the end phase, they can sit and operation just like any other ground unit. Of course, they are speed 0 so they have obvious limitations. == I think you're going to struggle on the first turn. You have ~2300 points tied up in 3 activations. Even if you crush a formation with each, the IG will have a run of unopposed activations. You will need to make sure you disable formations to the greatest extent possible with those air assault hammers, and even then their counter attack is likely to hurt quite a bit. One common method of Thawk attacks is a 1-2 punch - land/shoot with the Devs, within 15cm support range of an assault target, then assault with the Thawk full of assault marines and the Devs' FF support. Given the small number of activations you will have, you might even want to have the Devs fire at a different target than the eventual assault target. That will allow you to attack 2 separate formations, shooting one, then assaulting the other. The Assault Marine target won't be prepped as much, but you should still be able to beat most targets. Alternately, if the Devs can FF one formation while having another IG formation close enough to lend FF support, when the Devs win the supporting formation would gain a BM. Assuming that worked, it would allow you to both break a formation and prep a formation for the Assault Marines. The "nearby formation BM prep" might also be useful on those small arty and AA formations in siege IG, if their placement happens to be conducive to the technique. You won't want to waste a full assault on those rinky-dink formations, but 1 BM on a 3-unit formation slows it down considerably. In my opinion, the most important thing is to get that double-attack out of the Devs on turn one, not to get them in an ideal firing position. You must crush as much IG as quickly as possible to slow their run of activations. You can move the Devs later if the position is not ideal. You might be able to do a 1-2 Thawk combo and follow that with the -3 on your next turn from the LC. However, I think you're really only going to get one combo unless the IG make a mistake. The LC is likely going to need to operate independently, or at least far enough away that you can't mutually support immediately. Luckily it should have the heft to do that. I think your "roll up the flank" idea is pretty much the only way to go. Your choice of targets is going to depend a lot more on the IG deployment than a theoretical choice between hitting infantry or armor. You'll need to pick the flank that is most vulnerable to the air assault hammer and hit it, almost regardless of what is there. You should obviously pick the biggest/toughest formations you think you can kill (or at least disable) so as to inflict the most pain in the shortest amount of time. == By the way, another option for the Thawks is 1 Assault/1 Dev formation in each, rather than 2 + 2. The combo isn't as crushing but each is multipurpose so there is an option to split them off more independently. Personally, I prefer 2+2, but a lot of people mix the loads so you might want to try it to see if it suits your play style. |
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| Author: | charliemachina [ Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Space Marine Air Attack |
Thank you so much for all the advice. Aircraft can fire from the ground: Would it be better to have them firing from the ground then because I understand that if I do attack run's I expose the Gunships to out of turn anti-air fire and could get my Thunderhawks shot down before they have even dumped their cargo of death? Would they not also provide supporting fire while on the ground? I'm loving the idea of putting the devastators in a position to support the assualt marines. If it goes well and i'm lucky with keeping my activations going I could be all over their formations attacking from the rear before they know it.....obviously it could all go quite badly to but there in lies the fun. I think the hawks need to be the first attack wave, Devastators getting in position first and setting up the assualt marine attack as you have said. The Landing Craft can then either try and come in on a lucky third activation or come to the rescue of the other units in the next turn. I think the devastators will struggle to one turn kill a big unit of tanks but I might try and aim for a small supporting unit especially anti air again as you suggested. The Double Assualt marine unit has a Chaplain and a Commander so i'm confident they can smash up even a big unit of tanks. The roll up the flank plan sounds like it may work well. I'd like to mix up Devastators and Assualt Marines as suggested however I only landed one thunderhawk in the last Aeronautica senario and in the campaign victory conditions it means i'm only able to have assualt marines in one thunderhawk in this senario (The idea being the second group didn't arrive at the staging area as they had to return to the orbiting fleet for refuelling.....I never realised how hard it was to land in Aeronautica). Wicked.....i'm looking forward to this win or louse it's going to be brutal! Cheers Charlie |
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| Author: | Mephiston [ Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Space Marine Air Attack |
Do you have a spaceship? Planetfall could be fun
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| Author: | Ginger [ Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Space Marine Air Attack |
If you are playing the 'Tournament' game using 3000 point armies (which most seem to do), you still have a further 700 points to use I would strongly consider including a spacecraft to allow planetfalling. This gives you several distinct advantages:-
Also, this would still leave a further 500 points which can be used on other troops. There are a number of potential candidates which can be used to soften up the outer areas of the enemy, including (in no particular order) Terminators, ThunderBolts, Warhound and Land Speeders. These activations also serve to bolster your activation count and give you some choice on when the air / space assaults take place. One final thought; try to keep your troops in mutual support of each other and concentrate on some part of the enemy army; the Marine air assault is brutal but must be made to count, otherwise your troops will be picked off as the enemy counter-attacks. |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Space Marine Air Attack |
Mephiston wrote: Do you have a spaceship? Planetfall could be fun This. If you have a spacecraft, I'd say pod the Devs and Tacs. That's 4 sets of deathwind attacks, plus the spacecraft's attacks, which should put a hefty dent in a static force like siege IG. Let the ground troops activate and shut down some of the air defenses before bringing in the Thawk full of assault marines. Use the other Thawk and the LC for strafing runs and/or to pick up troops to bring back the following turn for air assault. You lose out on some combined assaults, but you gain lots of flexibility and those fun deathwinds. charliemachina wrote: Would it be better to have them firing from the ground then because I understand that if I do attack run's I expose the Gunships to out of turn anti-air fire and could get my Thunderhawks shot down before they have even dumped their cargo of death? Would they not also provide supporting fire while on the ground? You still have to fly them onto the board and land, so you're taking a risk to get them on the ground in the first place. Once the turn is over, you can see what kind of AA assets are still effective or likely to rally. Decide then whether you want to fly off or stay on the ground and fire from where you are. (Aircraft cannot start on the board, if that's what you mean, unless it's a special scenario condition.) |
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| Author: | Mephiston [ Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Space Marine Air Attack |
Do consider planet falling the landing craft maybe. It's cargo can hide behind it as its a war engine, It's fealess so won't auto die if beaten in an assault and can activate itself on the turn it arrives. Even go on overwatch if the light tanks head its way... Marines are the utlimate flexible force. |
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| Author: | charliemachina [ Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Space Marine Air Attack |
Alas I have no Space Craft therefor no Planetfall, the lists have already been agreed. Looks like my Aircraft will be taking incomming hits from Anti Air booooooo! Still, I have a plan now. Cheers Charlie |
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| Author: | AgeingHippy [ Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Space Marine Air Attack |
Hey Charlie Have you run this game yet? I would like to know what you went with and how it went. 2 thunderhawks loaded with 2 Devastators and 2 Assaults respectively with the 1-2 punch seems like it could be very nasty, but that is 6 activations gone in your first go. (I would assume one would do a retain initiative in order to bring the second THawk with assaults in. Those attacks would have to be damn hard to be worth while.... since you are setting those 6 formations up to free shots from the opponent so to speak! |
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| Author: | AgeingHippy [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Space Marine Air Attack |
Has anyone actually carried out this type of air assault, and if so how worth-while was it given the use of 6 activations before the enemy has used any? - or is it in fact theoretical? My thought is that you are placing 6 formations in harms way, well within shooting range of the enemy and they should be able to chip away at your marines... |
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| Author: | MikeT [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Space Marine Air Attack |
I have, and it's very much, if it works, it works big, if it fails, then yes, half your army is left swinging in the wind. You can minimise the risk by attacking one flank, and possibly teleporting terminators down next to where you intend to assault to lend FF support. You could even sustain with the terminators as your first activation (8 x 4+ is good shootin') to put blast markers on the formation and hopefully thin the numbers a bit, then retain to air assault the already shot formation. |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Space Marine Air Attack |
AgeingHippy wrote: Has anyone actually carried out this type of air assault, and if so how worth-while was it given the use of 6 activations before the enemy has used any? Many times, both as attacker and defender. As noted, it needs to be set up to clobber a major enemy asset for exactly the reason you say - tying up lots of points in one mega-activation. If need be you can split it up as described above to hit more than one formation if you're facing an army that doesn't have a big, juicy target. |
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| Author: | AgeingHippy [ Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Space Marine Air Attack |
Hi guys Not sure if this should be a new post, but it is related to SM air attack... If a thunderhawk is sitting on the ground loaded at the beginning of the turn (ie - was loaded previous turn and did not leave the board in the end phase - probably because it was not allowed to) can one activate the grounded Thunderhawk as per a normal formation, take off and maneuvre as allowed (45deg turns per 30cm) in order to deliver the payload elsewhere (perhaps in an assault)? Cheers |
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| Author: | Mephiston [ Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Space Marine Air Attack |
Nope. Once on the ground the only way a T'hawk can move again is to make a disengagement move in the end phase as per 4.2.6 It can however activate in the turn its sitting on the ground and shoot or engage something its in range of. |
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| Author: | Ginger [ Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Space Marine Air Attack |
HaHa, I think this was the question that got me into the forums a looong time ago. Like you, I thought "this is a big battlefield some 30 miles wide by 15 deep; I want the THawk to re-position my troops" and was effectively told the same thing - wherupon I started to work out all sorts of ways of achieving it. During a turn, Air transports can bring stuff in to the battlefield, or evacuate it off table. Although you can remain on the table (see below), generally air transports are better off leaving the table at the end of the turn during the end phase. However, there are a couple of ways to keep the air transport full so that it can effectively be moving stuff around in the way that you envisage (though in practice it is not that easy to pull off). Whilst the air-transport is on the ground, it becomes a "ground unit" for all purposes, except that it may 'disengage' in the end-phase; this is the *only* way it can fly off! If it remains on the table at the end of a turn, the following turn it activates like any other ground formation using the standard activations (*not* the aircraft activations). So it has a ground unit move of 0 cms, can shoot and assault etc - and can be "broken" if BMs become excessive. Note, it *may* disengage when broken, whereupon it leaves the table with twice its DC in BMs. I hope that makes things clearer
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