Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 84 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Eldar Titans? Old-school or Epic-40k Phantoms?

 Post subject: Eldar Titans? Old-school or Epic-40k Phantoms?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:52 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:47 pm
Posts: 387
OH that would be great!!! I'd totally love a Fanatic company!

_________________
If you suddenly find that I make any sense.... look out of your window for armageddon!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Eldar Titans? Old-school or Epic-40k Phantoms?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:02 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Hi!

GW does not license, make "daughter companies" or anything like that since simply put it does not want competition in any form.

Their whole philosophy is to get people to buy their core games, anything that detracts from that, even when the money is still going to to them, gets canned. Their company IS their core games and therefore their very existance depends on them so absolutely nothing, even their own minor games can compromise that.

Epic died the day it stopped being a core game.

Some of us are just stubborn and havent realized it..... :;):

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Eldar Titans? Old-school or Epic-40k Phantoms?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:17 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm
Posts: 10956
Location: Burbank, CA, USA
Quote (primarch @ 30 2004 Nov.,13:02)
GW does not license, make "daughter companies" or anything like that since simply put it does not want competition in any form.

Not quite true. The Card Game was a license and so is the computer game, right?

They just must see a profit in it first. ?:;):

dafrca

_________________
"Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"
              - Cities of Death, page 59

Come fight me, if you dare...... http://dd-janks.mybrute.com


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Eldar Titans? Old-school or Epic-40k Phantoms?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:37 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:54 pm
Posts: 3381
Location: First star to the right, and straight on till morning.
I think that there are some valid points here.  And I would like to add one of my own.  Here in the USA, marketing for EA was limited, the release delayed by 6 months, and of course, the idiocy of denying any independant retailer easy access to the line.  Also, refusal to allow any online sales onther than GWUS.  This is supposed to be quality marketing / support?  I am not going to rant/whine any more, but nor am I going to be blamed for GW's failure to attract new players (the ones who would really buy)  by attempting to skimp on marketing and availibility.  

my 2cents,

iblisdrax

_________________
"Have Leman Reuss, will travel"

"Hallo. My name is Indigo Montoya. You killed my father prepare to die!"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Eldar Titans? Old-school or Epic-40k Phantoms?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:22 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:02 pm
Posts: 10956
Location: Burbank, CA, USA
I think it is silly to blame anyone other then GW for the latest SG situation. Any real business person knows when they are supporting a limited product (Epic or BFG) vs. their flag ship product (Herohammer 40k).

I will not believe they (the suits) thought it would sell at 40k levels. Rather, I think the studio team disliked the loss of control SG represented and it was that ego that drove the spike through SGs heart.

ROI is not just about volume. It is about speed and percents. SG may not have sold as much as 40k, but if the ROI is right, it is worth doing.

Jervis is not to blame, We are not to blame, GW is. :angry:

dafrca

_________________
"Every Man is a But Spark in the Darkness"
              - Cities of Death, page 59

Come fight me, if you dare...... http://dd-janks.mybrute.com


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Eldar Titans? Old-school or Epic-40k Phantoms?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:53 pm 
Warhammer historical - it would still be dropped by GW in the same way fanatic has been as it doesn't have the margins nessecery for them it seemed. Low expectations were exceded. indeed it was the basis for the fanatic set up and epic release.

because WE THE PUBLIC failed to pump in enough cash sales to make
>>>>>>>>>>>
Epic had 400% of of its projected sales. The sales projection was (and money model with it) warmaster.  Delays for mail ordered products were up to month as forge world and SG struggled to meet demand.

Epic had the sales, indeed it, BFG and blood bowl subsidise the other fanatic games.

Perhaps what we will see now is an increase for popular line sand decrease in unpopular line releases rather than a comitment to support them all.

Epic though in its present form has made a profit.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Eldar Titans? Old-school or Epic-40k Phantoms?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:32 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 2:30 pm
Posts: 462
Quote (primarch @ 30 2004 Nov.,22:02)

GW does not license, make "daughter companies" or anything like that since simply put it does not want competition in any form.

Their whole philosophy is to get people to buy their core games, anything that detracts from that, even when the money is still going to to them, gets canned. Their company IS their core games and therefore their very existance depends on them so absolutely nothing, even their own minor games can compromise that.

Sorry Peter, I cannot agree.

The model you hypothesize could only make sense if the target markets of the core and SG games were the same. I don't have the smallest amount of hard data, obviously, but it seems likely to me that this is not actually the case. The primary target for GW big three is in the 10-15 age bracket, whereas the specialist range mostly caters to the somewhat more refined taste of old-time gamers. I know I NEVER, EVER bought anything for WH40K (barring the old rulebook for fluff purposes), and my last WFB mini purchase was made many years ago.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Eldar Titans? Old-school or Epic-40k Phantoms?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:56 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:21 pm
Posts: 1254
Location: UK/Suffolk
From reading the first post to the last, I noticed that one point has been missed until Magnus posted his message (before mine).

WH40K is targetted for 10-15 age bracket, but in fact has followes of age of 8+. This is because they are quite large figures and even youngesters can paint them (even if they don't understand or know all the rules). Then you have the vetrans and even newbies who can convert these models easily giving players even more different looks to their army.

The same can not be said for Epic. They are not easy to paint (especially for younger kids) and not easily converted. This means that the followers/audeiance for Epic is vastly reduced and rely on GW to provide the variety of models.

Every product has a target audience, and no matter how popular it can get, if the audience is limited, it won't do well. And unfortunately Epic falls into this category.

So even if GW did provide better support and we players made more effort to help it, this Game can only marginally profitable for GW.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Eldar Titans? Old-school or Epic-40k Phantoms?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:14 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36947
Location: Ohio - USA
After all the rhetoric ... we're just going to wait and see ...

_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Eldar Titans? Old-school or Epic-40k Phantoms?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:02 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Hi!


Not quite true. The Card Game was a license and so is the computer game, right?


Neither of these competes directly with their main business of making miniatures. They are not a card game company of a computer game company. It is easy to make deals for those things for them since they make money with no risk to their main business. Lisencing to someone to make miniatures and thus compete with them (even when the same company) is an entirely different matter.

Note that the competition they dont like is games and miniatures that detract from buying core games. Thats why FW thrives since their stuff promotes more sales of core game miniatures.

We can debate what would happen to FW if their "epic" department suddenly sold more than their 40k department.

I'd bet we'd see some "restructuring" very quick.

GW are their core games and no more. Anything that compromises that leads a short life.

Thats why if you enjoy GW's "minor" games you really need to provide for yourself. Otherwise you will be disappointed...

..frequently.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Eldar Titans? Old-school or Epic-40k Phantoms?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:09 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2003 4:23 pm
Posts: 789
Location: Tampa, Florida
I am not blaming everything on Jervis, but I do think he made some wrong decisions.

Keep in mind, when I first read online that Jervis was going to make a new version of Epic and let the players be involved with the playtesting, I wrote him a long email on what I thought were the pros and cons of the previous Epics, and what I would want to see in a new one. To my shock he wrote back and we exchanged a bunch of ideas before the playtesting forum even opened. It was great because Epic is by far the system I've played the longest and the most of.

But Epic A is just missing things that I loved about the previous editions. I don't care only about the ruleset. I like entertaining fluff and most of all, the minis.

The first mistake I think Jervis made was recycling the old Armageddon battle. Geez, do we have to fight this one more time? It is uninspiring. I would have rather have seen something more open-ended. Plus, Space Marines, Imperial Guard, and Orks is a little boring. That's two human armies versus an Ork one. Woopy-doo! Epic40k included comprehensive army lists for five armies, each with many more minis that the current ones.

The release schedule is crazy. Either commit to getting out the minis or dont do it at all. Don't waste players time with the Baran when people really want Chaos and the Eldar, Tau, or even Necrons. That builds excitement. If Fanatic ever does get around to releasing the Necrons for Epic 5-6 years from now, is anyone really going to care???? A couple of gamers here and there and that's it.

Those decisions were Jervis's strategy, not some jerk in GW. I give credit to Jervis for trying, but he lost my attention and I LOVED Epic.

Imagine if Epic A was released with the rules for the Space Marines, Chaos, and the Eldar right from the beginning. Or the Space Marines, Orks, and Eldar. They are more exciting. He should have released rules for all the existing core armies right in the beginning and then do poo like the Feral Orks and Baran years down the line. It was like he was trying to spread out the lifecycle of Epic A to keep interest in it and it doesn't work. Most of the minis aren't going to change either, so just re-release them. The Baran. . . god what a waste.

Fanatic's site sucks too. I would handle it completely different. And to say that enough people aren't online is crazy. Wizkids and Wizards of the Coast don't have any problems and they rely heavily on their sites to promote their games, regardless if you can find their products everywhere.

_________________
Please check out my website: http://www.system17.com


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Eldar Titans? Old-school or Epic-40k Phantoms?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:16 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Hi!

Magnus, you assume that GW actually WANTS to target the older gamer crowd. All evidence and marketing devices point against that. As you point out the core games are mainly targeted to a younger age group. This decision was due to the fact that younger audiences are usually quite fickle and usually have short commitments towards their interests. This is great for GW, becuase they can "turn around" their customer base every so often and sell the SAME stuff all over again to another new customer base of the same age.

They have successfully done this for years. Further more I have seen and read actual retailer (store owner) propaganda that instructs store owners to "neutralize" older gamers becuase they dont buy as much, complain too much and have a negative impact on sales to new customers.

GW consistently eliminates, downplays and generally does not support any game or minis line beyond their core line because they dont cater to their target audience that gives them the most money.

To have a line like epic, that appeals to older gamers (not their target audience), or worse have it sell well, detracts from their goal of having people play and buy their core games and detracts from their true target audience.

What the older age groups like to buy is irrelevant since GW has restricted the their market to those games and ages groups they have found most profitable.

So my original point stands. Anything that dtracts from core game sales gets canned.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Eldar Titans? Old-school or Epic-40k Phantoms?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:44 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:01 pm
Posts: 3495
Location: Wessex
Quote (primarch @ 01 2004 Dec.,22:16)
. Further more I have seen and read actual retailer (store owner) propaganda that instructs store owners to "neutralize" older gamers becuase they dont buy as much, complain too much and have a negative impact on sales to new customers.

So they were referring to me then....

That picture of an older gamer certainly has a familiar tone to it...

:cool:





_________________
Jimbo
Felix's Gaming Pages
Felix's Gaming Pages Blog
Almost Always Right...


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Eldar Titans? Old-school or Epic-40k Phantoms?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 1:26 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Hi!

:D I know what you mean Jimbo. When I read it (the store owner and I s=talked alot since I was the only customer he had that was a previous store owner, heck I even sold him old stock when I finally closed down...), I also told him GW was refering to me! :D

Gandlaf, I agree with you (thats becoming a habit isnt it? :;): ).

I didnt bother with participating with Epic A's development mainly on the grounds of the poor marketing strategy (focusing on armageddon, limited model availability, focusing on some armies, while ignoring more important ones like chaos) and not starting the rules design from scratch (starting design from the husk of epic 40k pretty much doomed any chance putting netepic respurces behind it).

The only thing I disagree with you Gandalf is that it was Jervis's desicion as regards to the release schedule. I just dont see him with the power to control resource allocation. He's just a peon (albeit a glorified one), with no real decisional power on how, or how much can be alloted for marketing and availability.

I do blame him for promising more than he could deliver. I'm still waiting for that limited run of plastic beetleback titans.....

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Eldar Titans? Old-school or Epic-40k Phantoms?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:59 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 7:35 am
Posts: 5455
Location: Finland
They want to "neutralize" us, eh? Lock and load!  }:)  Long live Net Epic!  :cool:

_________________
I don't know and I let who care. -J.S.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 84 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 25 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net