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| Skimmers clarification please http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21685 |
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| Author: | AgeingHippy [ Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Skimmers clarification please |
Hello All IMO the skimmers rules as states in section 2.1.13 of the rulebook is quite clear, but unfortunately another in the group does not see it. I agreed to post his question, so here goes. Quote: How high can a skimmer hover above the ground – eg – one of my gaming crew is of the opinion that when the rules say “a short distance above the ground” this means about half an inch in war table terms, and therefore not sufficient to clear buildings and cliffs. Also, since the model is fixed at an inch height above its stand (popped up), how do we address line of sight, eg if the top of the model appears over a wall, surely this is for when it is in “popped up” state, not popped down. Should we remove the model from its stand when it’s popped down? He further has concerns about movement, stating a skimmer cannot skim/fly over a cliff edge or a building. If there could be some consensus from the forum to put this issue to rest I would appreciate it. |
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| Author: | Ulrik [ Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Skimmers clarification please |
The rules do not concern themselves with how high the skimmers are. The relevant rules are: "Skimmers may ignore dangerous or impassable terrain as they move." Simple, a cliff is impassable, but skimmers can ignore it and move over. "A skimmer that has popped up is assumed to be flying high enough that nearby intervening terrain that is closer to the skimmer than the target does not block line of fire." So skimmers can pop up as far as is necessary. If they're behind a big building they can still pop up and shoot over it. Model scale and ground scale are not the same anyway (1:300 vs 1:3000), so using 3D angles and distances won't give accurate results. Finally, think of skimmers as helicopters, not hovercraft. They can fly almost as high as they want to, but in combat situations they will almost without exception prefer to stay low just above the ground. |
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| Author: | BlackLegion [ Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Skimmers clarification please |
Skimmers behave much like modern helicopters. On moving they are hugging terrain but usually follow the profile of the terrain. For example is there a building in the way? They will hover up to move over the building but the moment they pass it they will hover down to the ground again contuing their move. Likewise they just fly over rivers, cliffs, etc. Popping up in rules terms is hovering very high and staying there to shoot at a target the Skimmer otherwise wouldn't see, or staying there to wait for a target of opportunity. |
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| Author: | AgeingHippy [ Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Skimmers clarification please |
Thanks Ulrik and Black leagon. Pretty much what I think as well. I guess equating the skimmers to a terrain hugging helicopter is a good analogy. I do have one point of interest, raised by another in the gaming group which I do feel is a valid question. What if a skimmer pops up to shoot at enemy formation A, and would be in range of enemy formation B who happen to be in Overwatch. How does one determine whether the skimmers have popped up high enough for formation B to shoot at them? Particularly if the terrain between A and skimmer is different to the terrain between B and skimmer. This could go further, when skimmers move behind a mountain or building are they high enough for the formation on overwatch to take a shot at them from the other side of the terrain or do we consider skimmers are just as high as they need to be to move? I assume in this case the skimmer chooses to remain low enough in order to remain out of sight? Thanks |
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| Author: | Mephiston [ Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Skimmers clarification please |
Height of the terrain isn't important in epic, its an abstraction. You should use the 5 min warm up to agree what can and can't hide behind terrain. Mainly this is does it block line of sight to titans or not. If pop'd up skimmers could target the over-watching formation then they can shoot at the skimmers is the simplest answer |
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| Author: | zombocom [ Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Skimmers clarification please |
The height of the terrain doesn't matter for popped up skimmers; the distance to the terrain is all that matters. If the skimmer is closer to the terrain than the other formation, then they can see each other. |
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| Author: | Ginger [ Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Skimmers clarification please |
It is worth noting that skimmers "pop-up" at the start of their movement, and "pop-down" at the end of their activation. Usually this is the last thing that happens before the next formation activates, though they can stay "popped-up" on OW. |
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| Author: | Ginger [ Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Skimmers clarification please |
It is worth noting that skimmers "pop-up" at the start of their movement, and "pop-down" at the end of their activation. Usually this is the last thing that happens before the next formation activates, though they can stay "popped-up" on OW. |
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| Author: | AgeingHippy [ Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Skimmers clarification please |
Ginger wrote: It is worth noting that skimmers "pop-up" at the start of their movement, and "pop-down" at the end of their activation. Usually this is the last thing that happens before the next formation activates, though they can stay "popped-up" on OW. So if the skimmers complete their move and are within range (but behind cover) of a formation on overwatch does that mean that the Overwatch formation cannot fire at them because they need to be in range and los at the *end* of a move? |
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| Author: | Mephiston [ Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Skimmers clarification please |
Overwatch is only checked at the end of a move. Which is why a double order is 2 moves and not one move at twice the units speed. |
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| Author: | Ginger [ Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Skimmers clarification please |
AgeingHippy wrote: Ginger wrote: It is worth noting that skimmers "pop-up" at the start of their movement, and "pop-down" at the end of their activation. Usually this is the last thing that happens before the next formation activates, though they can stay "popped-up" on OW. So if the skimmers complete their move and are within range (but behind cover) of a formation on overwatch does that mean that the Overwatch formation cannot fire at them because they need to be in range and los at the *end* of a move? As Meph says, OW is checked at the end of each 'move', so if the skimmer marched, you would check it three times. The skimmer "pops-up" at the start of its movement and counts as popped up for for all three checks. To determine if the skimmer is in cover after each move, measure the relative distances from the firer and skimmer to any intervening terrain. If the skimmer is closer to the terrain, then it can shoot, or in this case be shot at by OW fire. Also note that the act of "popping up" is deemed to be movement; you cannot pop-up to sustain, nor can you "pop-up" to support an assault |
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| Author: | Ulrik [ Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Skimmers clarification please |
Ginger wrote: Also note that the act of "popping up" is deemed to be movement; you cannot pop-up to sustain, nor can you "pop-up" to support an assault Note that there's a specific exception that allows skimmers to pop-up when they go on overwatch, even though they can't move when they do. |
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