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black legion / chaos composition question
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21644		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  enri [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  black legion / chaos composition question
I'm either really stupid and/or blind but I'm really struggling working out some of the finer points of the chaos marine list... few questions for you all :)

- "One chaos space marine lord character and eight chaos space marines"

is the chaos lord's stand considered an addition to the 8 already mentioned, or does he form part OF the eight stands? presuming the latter but I'm unsure

- as per above, adding a champion to the retinue (and an icon bearer now that I think about it)

are these added as additional characters? i.e. they get a stand to themselves, or can they be grouped onto one base if desired? i.e. I've bought a black legion retinue, I've upgraded the lord to a warlord, I've also bought a champion and an icon bearer... can I decide to place the icon bearer on the warlord's stand and leave the champion on a seperate stand?

- for this part of the black legion army list specifically, "For every Retinue taken you may select one Elite formation and two Support formations. Each formation may take a maximum of 4 upgrades, but each upgrade can only be selected once by each formation.

does this refer to each formation in that pack of 1 retinue, 1 elite, 2 support? or does it refer to the whole army at large?

i.e. I have two black legion retinues, are they limited to taking upgrades the other retinue hasn't already got? or is it only within the support formations and elite formations that are related to that retinue?

colour me confused (and stupid)
Author:  GlynG [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: black legion / chaos composition question
The Chaos Space Marine Lord is a character and in Epic characters are added to another unit of the controlling player's choice in their formation, rather than being a separate unit of their own.

I believe they can be added to a unit upgrade added as part of the formation too (they can in the Space Marine list anyway so that an added Chaplain Dreadnought was legal and used in Epic long before it ever was in W40k). If you look up the Chaos Lord's stats you will see they have an attack and special rules but N/A for most of their stats.

As to your other question; each formation has upgrades seperately, so you can have a retinue with Vindicator upgrade and an armoured company with vindicator upgrade. Note that the upgrades a formation can legally take are specified next to it in the army list, most formations have a limited choice as to which they can take.
Author:  Spectrar Ghost [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: black legion / chaos composition question
THe wording on that quote is terribly ambiguous, but AFAIK only retinues can take upgrades.
Author:  GlynG [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: black legion / chaos composition question
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
THe wording on that quote is terribly ambiguous, but AFAIK only retinues can take upgrades.

I'm certain you're wrong about that SG - if you look at the list it specifies upgrades the other formations are allowed.
Author:  Spectrar Ghost [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: black legion / chaos composition question
In that case I retract my statement. Chaos lists are not my strong point...
Author:  enri [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: black legion / chaos composition question
I've just had an epiphany on that quote about upgrades... just means the formation can't have an upgrade more than once. dur. It is a touch on the ambiguous side though.

I'm officially stupid :(

edit: ok, another ambiguous one... how about this? emperor's children list has chaos marines as a support option, their only upgrade being daemonic pact... so they can summon daemons? there's no mention of marking them as a specific god, I would assume that they'd be marked as slaanesh by the mere fact that they're in the emperor's children list.. but I'm a quibbler for having every detail laid bare in front of me and don't like to make assumptions about anything. So... if they're unmarked (and therefore can't summon slaanesh daemons) and daemonic beasts aren't available in the EC list.. then how can they summon at all?

I go back to making the assumption that they're marked as slaanesh troops for the sakes of daemon summoning.. is that correct? :)

*sob*
Author:  Mephiston [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: black legion / chaos composition question
Are you talking netEA or Epic-UK here enri?
Author:  enri [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: black legion / chaos composition question
Epic UK, sorry :)
Author:  Mephiston [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: black legion / chaos composition question
Don't apologise!

I'm fairly sure that when using the faction list that all formations are marked by the lists god. Steve54 will hopefully be along to confirm more formally.

Email what you find ambiguous to info@epic-uk.co.uk and it can be looked at when the CSM come up for review.
Author:  Steve54 [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: black legion / chaos composition question
For the faction lists - Emperors childen, world eaters, death guard + thousand sons all formations are marked by the respective God of each list. ie all EC formations are slaaneshi.

Upgrades - each formation, regardless of whether it is core, elite or support can take any upgrades listed. All formations can take up to 4 upgrades each - 4 rhinos or 3 obliterators etc count as one upgrade but you couldn't take 3 obliterators (for example) more than once per formation.
Author:  enri [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: black legion / chaos composition question
Ah perfect, that clears that up then :) ...how about those character upgrades? are they free to be added to any allowed units in the formation? (I notice that the warlord entry states that it must be added to a core unit in the formation, not an upgrade unit but nothing of the sort mentioned for the unit champions / icon bearers) - I just figure it'd be better in some cases to have those character upgrades spread throughout a unit rather than the 'eggs in one basket' approach.

I think I might be nitpicking over rules now :)
Author:  Steve54 [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: black legion / chaos composition question
Icon bearers+champions can only be added to units in the original formation (I'll add this to the list for the review). as to adding both Lord+icon bearer to the same stand I can't see any reason why not - but also no reason why it would be a good idea to do that
Author:  enri [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: black legion / chaos composition question
top stuff, thanks for clarifying!
Author:  Mephiston [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: black legion / chaos composition question
Mean's you icon bearer gets and inv save?
Author:  Steve54 [ Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: black legion / chaos composition question
He does anyway
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