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What removes overwatch?
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=20993		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Lsrwolf [ Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:37 am ]
Post subject:  What removes overwatch?
1) The unit on overwatch fires at an opportunity target.
2) The unit on overwatch chooses to activate and perform a different action.

what other events remove overwatch?
Author:  Spectrar Ghost [ Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What removes overwatch?
Being engaged. Maybe supporting fire? Not much else.
Author:  Jaggedtoothgrin [ Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What removes overwatch?
according to the rules, nothing other than shooting (not supporting fire, which is firefight, and not refered to as shooting) or performing another action will cause a unit to come off overwatch. being engaged does not remove it (although most people when engaged will shoot their attackers)
i would say that a broken formation loses overwatch (atleast, if it makes a withdrawal move, one could argue that staying still doesnt cause it to drop, but i'd think withdrawal moves would constitute 'another action')
Author:  frogbear [ Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What removes overwatch?
you could always just remove the opponent's Overwatch counter when he/she is not looking.

That could probably work as well :D
Author:  Mephiston [ Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What removes overwatch?
Being broken will drop Overwatch too. Check the last section of 1.13.3 Withdrawals

Quote:
If a formation is broken part way through an action that it
is taking (ie, by the Blast marker received for failing an
initiative test, or as a result of Blast markers received from
overwatch fire), then it makes a withdrawal and loses the
rest of its action.


As you are effectively part way through your action when on overwatch then by this rule you lose overwatch once broken.

Knew the answer would be there somewhere but took a little time to find it :)
Author:  Jaggedtoothgrin [ Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What removes overwatch?
actually, what that means is that if you're mid-march, and your opponent shoots you with overwatch and puts enough BMs on you to break, it stops your activation. i'm not at all convinced that being on overwatch is the same as being mid-activation for the rest of the turn.
Author:  Mephiston [ Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What removes overwatch?
What's the difference? Mid march you get broken you can make 2 moves as part of a withdrawal and your done.

Get broken on overwatch and you can make 2 moves as part of a withdrawal and your done.

Can't see whats different? If your not mid activation when on overwatch you would HAVE to activate every turn. The overwatch rules explicitly say you can just keep this status between turns without the need to reset.
Author:  Jaggedtoothgrin [ Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What removes overwatch?
i disagree, the wording on activations is pretty clear. If an overwatch action is not resolved until the shooting triggers, then it can never occur, because the opponent cannot activate a formation until the overwatch action finishes.

and you WOULD have to activate every turn in order to remain in overwatch, except that the rules explicitly state that you do not need to. they added a very clear passage to explain that you can remain in overwatch without having to activate again. one does not create an exception to a rule if the exception is the rule itself.

a formation performing an overwatch action may not move (this could, but does not explicitly, cover countercharges and withdrawal moves, its a seperate kettle of fish if this prevents them from moving, or causes them to lose overwatch if they do)
and if a unit performs another action in a following turn, or shoots at any point, it is then considered out of overwatch.

a broken unit does not automatically move, or perform another action. (and even if it did, taking a further action that turn is specifically not listed in the rules as removing overwatch. there are other rules that say you cannot take a further action, but if a special rule, or more likely, a scenario rule, where to override them, you could stay in overwatch in your following action, so long as you dont move)

being broken, or being engaged, does not automatically remove overwatch. so for instance a unit that breaks, say due to ranged BMs, may choose not to retreat, in order to remain in overwatch, it cannot shoot, because it is broken, but it would retain its cover save.

from a rules perspective, there is nothing written to suggest otherwise
from a fluff perspective, a formation of dug in infantry that break are not going to simply jump out of their fox holes and stand still. they'll either retreat (ie, make a withdrawal move) or hunker down even further (ie: stay put and remain on overwatch and thus, in cover)
Author:  Mephiston [ Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What removes overwatch?
As you say we disagree and that's fine.
Author:  Kyrt [ Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What removes overwatch?
Where do the rules say that moving removes overwatch? As far as I can say they only say that they can't make a move (in the same way that formations on sustained fire can't make a move). It doesn't say either that they can't countercharge or consolidate, for example. The only thing that is specifically stated to remove overwatch is shooting:
Quote:
Once it has fired, the formation is no longer considered to be on overwatch.


However, I think it is pretty obvious that being broken should remove overwatch as becoming broken cancels the rest of an action. The passage on overwatch reads pretty clearly to me that the overwatch action is not completed until the formation shoots, which means being broken would interrupt that action.

This reading seems to be supported by the FAQ, which states that shooting on overwatch is not an action itself but part of the previous action - overwatch formations are still allowed to complete their shooting if they are in ZoC or out of cohesion.
Author:  carlos [ Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What removes overwatch?
The end of the game will also remove overwatch.
Author:  frogbear [ Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What removes overwatch?
carlos wrote:
The end of the game will also remove overwatch.

+1 :D
Author:  Jaggedtoothgrin [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What removes overwatch?
no, my first statement is saying that If an overwatch action is not completed till it fires, then as soon as i declare a model in overwatch the game is over. my opponent cant start an activation in the middle of one of mine, and i cannot shoot until he moves, thus neither of us can do anything until time is called or one of us gives up. i was pointing out a flaw with his suggestion, not agreeing with him.

if a formation breaks while mid-activation, it loses the rest of its action
an overwatch action takes place when you declare "i am going into overwatch"

to me, the intent of the rule is incredibly clear.

"Formations remain on overwatch until they either shoot, or they undertake a new action in the following turn."
if breaking stopped them being on overwatch, it would be specifically on the list. (or the rules for breaking would have it) it isnt, thus, it doesnt.
Author:  Simulated Knave [ Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What removes overwatch?
OK. So what happens when a broken formation on overwatch fails its rally check and has to withdraw? After all, formations on overwatch may not move.

It doesn't say "make a move". It says "may not move". So they cannot move, under any circumstances. So what do they do with withdrawals?
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