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War Engines as a Transport

 Post subject: War Engines as a Transport
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:11 am 
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We played a game yesterday where I used quite a few War Engines as transports. In doing so, we wanted to clarify some of the rules:

1. Independant War Engine with a transport capacity, you can start a formation in these - correct (I know I answered my own question here)

2. Is there any reason to have a War Engine as part of a formation and not remain Independant? Example:
- Independant War Engine can Double. Another formation can then March into War Engine to take advantage of the Transport capacity
- War Engines as part of a formation cannot independantly move and must risk either a move that the rest of the formation decides to do to finish in it, or does nothing as the formation moves in to be transported by it. The War Engine cannot 'run over' troops to pick them up like a conventional AV transport - seems silly.

It just seems that you are at a disadvantage by having a War Engine as part of the formation when it should be a boon.

3. Charging out of a War Engine. The rules seem to imply that if you are in a War Engine and you charge as one formation, you only have the 5cm disembark move after any War Engine movement. Effectively, if I do not wish for the war engine to move (merely offer support from where it is sitting), troops only get a 5cm charge. Is this correct? Would it not make more sense that they charge out of a stationary War Engine at the full 15 to x cm?

If the above details are correct, would it not make more sense that if a War Engine runs over troops (Like an AV) it could pick them up?

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 Post subject: Re: War Engines as a Transport
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:45 pm 
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1) Yes, as you know troops can start inside a separate WE formation.

2) Yes there is. Essentially the difference is marked out in the subtle differences between Formation transport (1.7.5) and Independant WE transport (3.1.3).
  • Formation transport can embark troops and then move. If they take a further move, the troops can then disembark. In this I believe that 1.7.5 takes precedence. However, as this is a WE, the troops have to move into the WE rather than having the WE move over them (and squash them :))
  • Separate WE transport is more restricted. The WE must activate first and the other troops can then move and embark. Once inside, the troops 'lose' their activation, disembarking after the WE finishes its movement.
There is no reason why a separate formation cannot embark into the WE of a separate formation provided all the rules are followed. So Mixed formation 'A' embarks, Doubles, disembarks and fires. Then formation 'B' doubles and embarks into the WE. Next turn, Mixed formation 'A' assaults something, disgorging 'B' at the end of its move as a combined attack.

3) I understand the thinking, but at the moment you only get the 5cm disembark. The problem is the increased impact of doing this. It is the same reason that WE are prevented from activating after something embarks onto it - because you effectively get an extended move. Being stationary might be worth trying, though if accepted, it will be another change that ultimately needs to be added to the GW site (with all the attendant problems)


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 Post subject: Re: War Engines as a Transport
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:55 pm 
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Quote:
In this I believe that 1.7.5 takes precedence.


It would be good to gain an official clarification. I am not sure these rules trump the War Engine rules.

Quote:
However, as this is a WE, the troops have to move into the WE rather than having the WE move over them (and squash them )


So the troops move into the War Engine first? Presumably, as I read it, the War Engine cannot them move even if it is part of the formation :(

Quote:
Separate WE transport is more restricted. The WE must activate first and the other troops can then move and embark. Once inside, the troops 'lose' their activation, disembarking after the WE finishes its movement.


As above, I am not sure whether the Transport trumps War Engine Transport rule

Quote:
There is no reason why a separate formation cannot embark into the WE of a separate formation provided all the rules are followed.


Other than the fact that you cannot use another formation's transport options? The distinction is whether it is Independant or not. My query really just relates to one bought specifically for a formation. The one I have in the example is a Skimmer War Engine which just exasperates the example :) I want to run over (skim over) my troops to pick them up. The rules seem very stringent in not allowing this.

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 Post subject: Re: War Engines as a Transport
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:54 pm 
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On the last point, I see no distinction between formations containing WE transport, and WE formations in their own right (typically air transports). Essentially they are both WE formations, and both have transport. Where do you find the prohibition about them transporting troops from a separate formation?

The only rule that is mandated is that all the troops from the other formation must fit inside the transport (so you are not allowed to put a tacticals formation into a separate Land Raider formation as it spans several units)***.

On troops embarking into transport, there are two distinct positions:- 'normal' transport (Rhinos etc) moves over the troops to be picked up (under 1.7.5). However, WE are so massive that troops move to the transport and then embark (under 3.1.3). As you say, it would be good to clarify just which bit takes precedence over the other - I presented my compromise by suggesting that when a WE is part of a formation, the troops still need to move to the WE rather than allow it to move over the troops.

On skimmers transport, the only added issue is 'popping up'. As this happens at the start of the activation and the skimmer does not 'pop-down' until the end of the activation, 'popped-up' transport cannot embark or disembark troops - though it does not stop them from remaining at ground level throughout their activation! Other than that, there is no distinction from other WE or transport. As far as I am concerned, if part of the formation, the WE just acts like a larger 'Rhino'; so it can embark and disembark troops as normal - provided it is 'popped-down'.

*** This does beg the question whether the last two tactical units could be picked up by a Land Raider formation, because they would fit inside a single LR; but I presume that this would not be allowed :)


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 Post subject: Re: War Engines as a Transport
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:10 pm 
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Only War Engines can transport units not part of their formation.

And it has been suggested that LR Detachments be permitted to do so, I believe. It was generally accepted to cause more problems than it would solve.

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 Post subject: Re: War Engines as a Transport
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:14 pm 
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I am so lost on the above :-[

Maybe Mr hunt will give us the clarification. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: War Engines as a Transport
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:49 am 
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I hope that was not my explanation (and SN is correct that only WE can carry troops from another formation). If you check the rules:-
Quote:
3.1.3
These war engines are an exception to the rule that transport vehicles may only carry units from their own formation. Instead a war engine transport vehicle can carry units from another formation, as long as the entire formation can fit inside the war engine, and as long as the entire formation mounts up as part of the same move. Note that a war engine may carry other units from its own formation using the normal rules (see 1.7.5).


So in summary
  1. Formation based transport is governed by 1.7.5 and can embark and disembark over multiple moves in a single activation.
  2. WE transport (3.1.3) is specifically written about transporting troops from other formations. Here, the WE loses it's activation after another formation embarks onto it (to avoid that formation moving too fast). The transported formation can only disembark in the following turn, and only the WE can activate
  3. The fact that the WE transport is part of a formation does not seem to prohibit it from carrying troops from another formation.
    So as I suggested, Mixed formation 'A' can embark its troops into its WE, Double and disembark the troops.
    Formation 'B' can then activate and move to the WE embarking at the end of its movement.
    The following turn, Formation 'A' can assault disembarking 'B' at the end of the movement - but 'B' has no move of its own (just like airborne formations)

The only point I differ on is whether WE that are part of the formation can move over troops or not. IMHO the WE transport should be static - but that is only to pay lip dervice to the spirit of 3.1.3.


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 Post subject: Re: War Engines as a Transport
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:53 pm 
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Right now WE transports cannot be both formation transport and WE transports. It's one or the other - dedicated or independent. You have to choose whether it is going to operate under 1.7.5 or 3.1.3. It can never do both, so there is no need to determine which one overrides the other.

Any list that allows both attached and independent WE transports should have the same clarification on it as the Ork list with respect to Gunfortresses and Battlefortresses.

And no, that's not in the rules. It's a design determination that was made long ago because of the confusion and exploits allowed by attached transport carrying around a separate formation. Ork players were using fortresses to combine and split formations, leading to both lots of rule questions and a silly amount of unintended tactical flexibility.


Ginger: You're technically correct that an attached WE transport could embark a separate formation. That loophole is what led to the decision in the Ork list about Fortresses.


frogbear wrote:
1. Independant War Engine with a transport capacity, you can start a formation in these - correct

correct

Quote:
2. Is there any reason to have a War Engine as part of a formation and not remain Independant?

Yes. Attached WE transports gain all the advantages of 1.7.5 - move over units to board, embark/dismebark on subsequent moves, etc.. Obviously, it loses the independence of being its own formation and it cannot carry units from other formations, so it's a tradeoff.

Quote:
- War Engines as part of a formation cannot independantly move and must risk either a move that the rest of the formation decides to do to finish in it, or does nothing as the formation moves in to be transported by it. The War Engine cannot 'run over' troops to pick them up like a conventional AV transport

This is not correct. An attached WE Transport functions in all ways as a normal formation transport.

Quote:
3. Charging out of a War Engine. The rules seem to imply that if you are in a War Engine and you charge as one formation, you only have the 5cm disembark move after any War Engine movement. Effectively, if I do not wish for the war engine to move (merely offer support from where it is sitting), troops only get a 5cm charge. Is this correct?

Yep.

Quote:
Would it not make more sense that they charge out of a stationary War Engine at the full 15 to x cm?

Why would that make more sense? Most of the time you're cramming a lot more people out a not-much-larger opening (or set of openings). Also, if you only want the WE to support, you shouldn't have loaded. That's a change in plans. You're coordinating multiple formations on the fly, as opposed to them being permanently assigned and having presumably drilled on procedures. That's hard to do. Really, really freakin' hard.

As an example, is it easier to charge out the back and sides of a Plague Tower than it is for Marines to go charging out the front of a Land Raider on an assault ramp? Definitely not. If the SMs are only going 5cm, the cultists in the Plague Tower surely aren't getting any farther than that.


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 Post subject: Re: War Engines as a Transport
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:38 pm 
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Thanks Neal. Muchly appreciated :)

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 Post subject: Re: War Engines as a Transport
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:45 pm 
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You're welcome.


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