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why GW abandoned epic
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19594		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  chrach7 [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:  why GW abandoned epic
I've just started with epic and I'm very caught up in it right now. I'm sure this was a hot topic of discussion several years ago, but why did GW withdraw support from epic? An old-timer at the local game shop says that folks were using epic models to play 40k for "less money" so GW killed it, but I don't really buy that explanation.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: why GW abandoned epic
The answers are myriad, but basically boil down to:

- Even though it did sell, it didn't sell as much as the Core games.

- It was designed for adults, when most of GW's customers are children.

- GW was having some financial troubles and couldn't afford to put effort into areas that wouldn't give the maximum returns.

- Supporting Epic (And the other SG's) through the stores meant that lots of product had to be sitting on shelves, regardless of its suitability (Or otherwise) to the typical GW customer, if that wasn't selling there was no reason to keep it on sale in stores.

- And finally, it costs more to collect a standard sized 40k army. GW likes money.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: why GW abandoned epic
Largely money. As E&C says above, with various people telling me the two critical ones were returns on investment (more money back for each pound invested in 40k instead of Epic) and drops of 40k sales to sg stuff.

Really a sensible company would licence off the stuff and ensure the normal customers never see it, and maybe GW one day will, after all they finally got round to licensing the board games.

Personally I don't buy the forgeworld masters excuse and suspect it is far more likely to be linked to bringing the moulding in house. Shame they can't let E&C or someone get a licence to make those resins either for them or for sale through a 3rd channel.
Author:  carlos [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: why GW abandoned epic
I was asked this the other day and since I work in marketing and advertising (*sigh*, yes I know...) an obvious question that came to mind was that it looks very unimpressive to the random punters on the street. By this, I mean that a shop in the high street that has painted epic models on its front and on the shelves inside will not attract the right demographic into the store. Adults won't go into a random 'toy' shop w/out their kids due to embarassment, and kids won't care about models that are so tiny. It's a business first, hobby tenth (or even further down the pole).
Author:  Legion 4 [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: why GW abandoned epic
E&C has it right ... and as TRC said ... $$$ ... But if you notice ... we are keeping it alive here !!! ;D WE don't need No stink'n G/W !!! Viva La Revolution' !!!! ;D 8)
Author:  Mephiston [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: why GW abandoned epic
OK, who had 52 mins in the "When will legion 4 tell GW to frak off" sweep? :)

GW stores are small, and they want to run as many as possible with one regular member of staff. It would be impossible to actively support 9 games given this was, and while they are making money, will continue to be the business target.

GW may talk hobby, but the breath and bleed business.
Author:  chrach7 [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: why GW abandoned epic
I just marvel at any untapped market. I understand why GW wouldn't stock the items in their retail stores, but as this website demonstrates, a single talented person with a CAD program and a 40 hour work week could keep epic running.

I got into epic because I love the 40k universe, but apocalypse will not allow you to recreate the battle for the emperor's palace etc. I've played 60k pt apoc games and they are horrible. I now spend money on both epic and 40k. I almost salivate looking at different WIP stuff on this board waiting for it to become available.

Thank god for this site or I would be running hideous old epic conversions. ;D
Author:  Legion 4 [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: why GW abandoned epic
;D I got to be me !! :D BTW - FRakk G/W !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D :D ;) ::) :P ^-^
Author:  Mephiston [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: why GW abandoned epic
If you accept that this is the most active Epic forum we have 2300 members. Dakka Dakka alone has 34,000 members. So as a business which community would you aim your marketing and development at?

If your a business that follows the more traditional small business model you can cater to a much smaller market, as many people here do, but when you are an international publicly limited company you have to chase the widest market you can, or your not doing your job and maximizing the investment of your shareholders.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: why GW abandoned epic
chrach7 wrote:
I just marvel at any untapped market. I understand why GW wouldn't stock the items in their retail stores, but as this website demonstrates, a single talented person with a CAD program and a 40 hour work week could keep epic running.

I think you'd need more than 1 person if it was to be a fully independent company.

At minimum you'd want:
- A sculptor
- Someone to run the "business back-end" (webstore/sales/posting/stock control/casting orders)
- Someone to write the rules etc.
- A miniatures painter
- A 2d artist
- A metal caster
- A resin caster for larger pieces

Now, some of those could be part-time or put out to freelancers, but others require a full-time worker.
Having a single guy do the sculpting, and the business side, and the casting... it couldn't be sustained as a business without burning the poor guy out.

Quote:
If you accept that this is the most active Epic forum we have 2300 members. Dakka Dakka alone has 34,000 members. So as a business which community would you aim your marketing and development at?

Warseer has 70,000 members(!).

GW is, of course, 100% correct from a business perspective not to have their main studio (Or even Forgeworld) working on a game like Epic (Which, at the height of the "Fanatic" Era, brought in about 0.8% of GW's total revenue... even when it was the 3rd Core Game it was the least popular of the three, only bringing in about 15% of GW's revenue IIRC).
Author:  zedmeister [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: why GW abandoned epic
For me, Epic was doomed to fall when 3rd edition was released. It caused such a rift with Epic gamers that lasts to this day with many players at the time abandoning the game or refusing to buy the new version outright (It also led to the development of Netepic). This inevitably led to its demise as one of the big 3. They really underestimated the gamers with 3rd edition so much so that they had to wheel out Robin Dews into White Dwarf to defend it - unheard of back in 1997!

For me thats why Epic is where it is today.
Author:  Mephiston [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: why GW abandoned epic
I think in truth even if epic40,000 had been a success it was only a matter of time before an accountant realized that 2 sci-fi games were splitting potential income and dropping the second place line.
Author:  EpicBattleBaggz [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: why GW abandoned epic
I agree with what E/C and TRC, but I'd like to add that the death nail in the coffin for Epic in general HAD to be the "Soul Selling Contract" to New Line Cinema for 10 yrs of a game that shall not be named. I still wonder to this day what cool new games like Mordhiem, Gorka Morka, BFG would have been created... and then gone... ::)

Oh GW how you vex me so...
Author:  blackhorizon [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: why GW abandoned epic
Blech, the LotR bashing makes me sick. LotR made GW more money then they ever could've made with any other game.

Also: LotR SBG is their better system compared to 40k/WHFB and the miniatures plain awesome.

But, yes, money runs the business.
Author:  nealhunt [ Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: why GW abandoned epic
chrach7 wrote:
I just marvel at any untapped market.

It's only a market if it is profitable.

If you're operating off cash, any profit margin above the interest you'd earn with it sitting in a bank is desirable. Specialist Games demonstrated they can do that.

When you operate off debt, you have to clear the interest rate, plus a premium for the risk of carrying debt. That's a lot tougher goal to reach. Just as a ballpark idea, say, 10+% return on investment instead of 4-5% with cash. Specialist games cannot do that.

Last time I checked, GW was operating off of lines of credit. Any expansion to support SG type games is effectively on credit. Therefore, SG is no longer a profitable market for them to develop.

Selling existing stuff avoids the development costs, so it has higher margins and they can afford to keep the SG lines in print. They'll continue that unless it becomes a liability (due to market shrinkage or whatever).
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