Tactical Command
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Titan Killer rule
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19032		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  binarybob [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Titan Killer rule
Hi guys,

I get rather confused about K weapons. Can someone please explain it to me and if possible include the following points:
1) Can it be used against all units?
2) when you see TK, you always see MW with it on weapons, why is this?
3) Is it the case that you just literally have to hit with it (i.e. no defence)

Thanks very much and sorry for being such a noob.

Bob Bob
Author:  nealhunt [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Killer rule
1) Yes

2) TK is a special ability added to MW hits. MW have different allocation rules than normal hits.

3) Usually, yes, but there are some defenses. Invulnerable saves work (roll per point of damage). Holofields work (roll once for all damage). The Necron list has Living Metal which causes special treatment of TK.
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Killer rule
nealhunt wrote:
Invulnerable saves work (roll per point of damage).

Really? I can't find anything in the Rules, FAQ or Errata that gives any form of order to when to apply the save, or the TK roll when dealing with War Engines. It's clear that it gets assigned before resolution (the whole Waround Pack being shot at thing), but having this FAQ/Errated to actually specify, would be a good thing. The ordering under Holofields can be interpreted as either an exception to the natural order, or an explanation of how any saves that get around TK work. So that doesn't fix it either.

With regards to non-War Engines, the rules actually seem to clearly state that it's just a single roll.
Quote:
In addition, further special rules apply if the target unit is a war engine (see 3.0).
The special rules in 3.0 are where the multi-dice thing is. So read as written, an Infantry/Vehicle with Invulnerable Save only has to treat it as a MW attack that ignores Reinforced Armour.

Morgan Vening
Author:  mspaetauf [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Killer rule
well a character's invulnerable save works against each point of damage the character takes. So you roll once for each point of damage caused by TK weapons.

The holofield, on the other hand, works differently - says so in the Swordwind book - just roll once for each TK weapon.

the TK weapon itself ALWAYS rolls the die for the amount of hits generated. Just because something has just one hitpoint doesn't mean it cannot be allocated more than one hit.

cheers,
Author:  zombocom [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Killer rule
Invulnerable saves come BEFORE rolling the multiple of the TK, surely? So one save or suffer all the damage?


EDIT: or maybe we've been playing this wrong for years....
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Killer rule
zombocom wrote:
Invulnerable saves come BEFORE rolling the multiple of the TK, surely? So one save or suffer all the damage?

That's what my interpretation of the rules says. It's pretty clear that the D3/D6/dwhatever ONLY applies to War Engines. Against non-WE, it's pretty clear (as written, if not intended), that it's only a single hit, treated as MW that ignores Reinforced Armor.

Morgan Vening
Author:  zombocom [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Killer rule
Morgan Vening wrote:
zombocom wrote:
Invulnerable saves come BEFORE rolling the multiple of the TK, surely? So one save or suffer all the damage?

That's what my interpretation of the rules says. It's pretty clear that the D3/D6/dwhatever ONLY applies to War Engines. Against non-WE, it's pretty clear (as written, if not intended), that it's only a single hit, treated as MW that ignores Reinforced Armor.

Morgan Vening


Against non-war-engines, that's definitely correct, as it is clear that the multiple damage rules only affect war engines.

But what about a war engine with an invulnerable save? Does that save before or after it's multiplied? We've always played before, but looking again that might be wrong:

Quote:
When allocating Titan killer hits that may cause multiple points of damage, roll for damage immediately after allocating the hit.


That'd suggest it's multiplied before the invulnerable save....
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Killer rule
zombocom wrote:
Invulnerable saves come BEFORE rolling the multiple of the TK, surely?

They don't. I tried to tell you that the other day when playing against Ryan's Tau, too.
Author:  binarybob [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Killer rule
2) TK is a special ability added to MW hits. MW have different allocation rules than normal hits.

Does that mean that you role for MW hits and TK hits as well?

Thanks

Bob
Author:  Ginger [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Killer rule
TK hits differ from others in that you have to roll for the number of damage points scored. This is all part of the TK shooting mechanism for each shot, and is done before allocation (check out the FAQ for shooting a pair of DS missiles at a Warhound pair).

Against normal units, this results in terminating that unit "with extreme predjudice" several times over. However an individual unit with a character upgrade could make an invulnerable save against each hit. The chances of survival are slim, but possible (some say they are improved with the dice of Dave :) )
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Killer rule
Ginger wrote:
TK hits differ from others in that you have to roll for the number of damage points scored. This is all part of the TK shooting mechanism for each shot, and is done before allocation (check out the FAQ for shooting a pair of DS missiles at a Warhound pair).

Against normal units, this results in terminating that unit "with extreme predjudice" several times over. However an individual unit with a character upgrade could make an invulnerable save against each hit. The chances of survival are slim, but possible (some say they are improved with the dice of Dave :) )

Except the rules for Titan Killer make NO mention of extra hits, except in Section 3 (War Engines). And the rules in Section 2 (Specialist Units and Weapons) says to only refer to Section 3 if the target is a War Engine.
2.2.9 Titan Killers wrote:
Some weapons are noted as being Titan Killers. Enemy units hit by such weapons may not take a cover or armour
save, even if they have reinforced armour. In addition, further special rules apply if the target unit is a war engine (see 3.0). In all other ways, Titan killers are treated as macro-weapons

So unless it's errated, Read As Written has it that it's just a single hit, so just a single Invulnerable Save, if the target is Infantry or Vehicle.

Morgan Vening
Author:  Ginger [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Killer rule
My bad - MV is correct.

But if you get a WE or Titan with an invulnerable save (by adding a commisar to it for example) then the WE allocation mechanics come into play, and you can attempt to save each point of TK damage. ;)
Author:  dptdexys [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Killer rule
Ginger wrote:
My bad - MV is correct.

But if you get a WE or Titan with an invulnerable save (by adding a commisar to it for example) then the WE allocation mechanics come into play, and you can attempt to save each point of TK damage. ;)


Commissar's don't get Inv. Saves.
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Titan Killer rule
Ginger wrote:
My bad - MV is correct.

But if you get a WE or Titan with an invulnerable save (by adding a commisar to it for example) then the WE allocation mechanics come into play, and you can attempt to save each point of TK damage. ;)

Except (and this was the reason for my initial query), it's not exactly clear.

Invulnerable Saves work against "any form of attack".
Titan Killers cause the target to "suffer damage equal to the roll".

By my reading of Firepower (section 1.1.3), an "attack" is the singular initial roll (the MW2+ bit).

Section 3.2.5 then says "If such a weapon hits a war engine then the war engine suffers damage equal to the roll of the appropriate sort of dice.", which to me, is interpretable that if the Invulnerable Save works against the attack, then without clarification, the timing of getting to make the InvSave vs getting to roll the multiple damage, is unclear.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating either side here. I'm happy to play it either way. But without clarification, it's possible to interpret it both ways. Rules consistency is important.

Morgan Vening
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