Tactical Command
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Rules question - grounded aircraft carring out extraction.
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18891		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules question - grounded aircraft carring out extraction.
So. Here we have a transport aircraft on the board (maybe it planetfalled, maybe it hung around last turn). Within 5cm is a formation. Can I when it is time to activate declare it will perform an extraction, hoover up the units and fire, exiting at the end of the turn. Or do I have to be in the air and off board to declare such a mission?
Author:  zombocom [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules question - grounded aircraft carring out extractio
Any aircraft on the ground counts as a ground formation for the whole turn and can only perform ground formation activations. Only in the end phase if it chooses to disengage will it become an aircraft again.
Author:  Ginger [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules question - grounded aircraft carring out extractio
Snap Zombo

As I suggested last night, landed aircraft "are treated in all respects as a ground unit". This means that they only have the standard activations (advance, double OW etc) and none of the Air activations (ground assault, intercept etc).

Also the rules for WE trasnport kick in here and require that the units being transported move to the WE to get on board, and this superceeds the original transportation rules in 1.7.5 that expect the vehicle to move over those units. (Note either way, with a 0cm move the WE is not going to be able to pick up the nearby troops)

One final point to note from WE transport is that having a separate formation embark as part of its move deprives the WE of any further activation that turn. So if you want to move or fire your WE transport it has to be done prior to other formations embarking.
Author:  Ginger [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules question - grounded aircraft carring out extractio
As an aside here, these rules do provide a way to 'recycle' air transports:-

Under 4.2.7, an Air transport carries out a ground assault with formation A disembarking as part of the move. Some time later, formation B moves into the air transport as part of its own activation, and the air transport leaves the table at the end of the turn as normal

The next turn, the cycle is repeated with formation B disembarking as part of the air transport ground assault, and formation A loading up sometime later.

Note, unless you are using the Eldar 'hit-and-run' tactic, in each case the embarking formation does nothing else. Also this is both an expensive and risky manoeuver as it leaves a very tempting target for the opponent.
Author:  Mephiston [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules question - grounded aircraft carring out extractio
Or use a second empty air transport to pick up A, assuming you consolidated them into an appropriate area for extraction.
Author:  frogbear [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules question - grounded aircraft carring out extractio
Quote:
(Note either way, with a 0cm move the WE is not going to be able to pick up the nearby troops)


Uhm, if the troops jump in, it picks them up does it not? In the end phase, it can then leave the table?
Author:  Mephiston [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules question - grounded aircraft carring out extractio
If the troops use their activation to move to base to base contact with the transport it can leave in the end phase.
If an AC WE transport lands and embarks a formation it my leave in the end phase
If the troops use a consolidation move post assault to embark the transport may not leave in the end phase.
Author:  frogbear [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules question - grounded aircraft carring out extractio
Mephiston wrote:
If the troops use a consolidation move post assault to embark the transport may not leave in the end phase.


What is the aircraft was on the ground at the start of the turn however.

A followup move to make it back into the aircraft should allow it to leave...
Author:  Mephiston [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules question - grounded aircraft carring out extractio
Nope, if a formation consolidates onto the A/C that counts as its disengagement move for the turn and it is grounded. This was discussed in length probably back in 2008 and this was the final outcome of that discussion. In reality I can't see it actually ever happening in a game in any case.

It also can't embark units within 5cm's as part of its activation as it has become a 0cm move WE for rules purposes.
Author:  Ginger [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules question - grounded aircraft carring out extractio
the ruling on consolidation taking part in the end phase of the turn was made at least 4-5 years ago. It was specifically intended to stop the 'endless' assault, where the the victorious airborne troops consolidated back into the air transport and repeated the same assault the following turn.

It is still possible to make repeated air-assaults, but you must either use two air transports (one to assault with the formation, the other to extract the formation), or you must use two ground formations rotating though a single air transport as described above.

However, you are permitted to use other moves to get into the transport including withdrawing broken units into it (who may then attempt to rally off-table).
Author:  Ginger [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules question - grounded aircraft carring out extractio
Hena, not sure what you mean here. However the important point is that if a formation embarks into an air transport as part of it's consolidation move (after winning an assault), the Air transport may not disengage in the end of turn phase and it must remain on the ground throughout the following turn.

The Eldar could use their 'hit-and-run' ability to double into a landed Air transport, firing at a target after the first move. This would not prevent the air transport from disengaging as the formation is not performing a consolidation move.
Author:  Mephiston [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules question - grounded aircraft carring out extractio
It was in response to my statement that it was unlikely that a formation would be in consolidation range of an AC WE transport that had spent the previous turn grounded!

Taken in that context it makes perfect sense!
Author:  nealhunt [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules question - grounded aircraft carring out extractio
The_Real_Chris wrote:
So. Here we have a transport aircraft on the board (maybe it planetfalled, maybe it hung around last turn). Within 5cm is a formation. Can I when it is time to activate declare it will perform an extraction, hoover up the units and fire, exiting at the end of the turn.

No. As noted, when on the ground, it takes ground-unit actions. There are no "free embark" ground actions.

Also, note that the "free embark" for aircraft is part of the landing process. It happens immediately when the unit lands. It is not part of disembarking, so you can't load up in the end phase and fly off with troops.

Quote:
Or do I have to be in the air and off board to declare such a mission?

You have to be in the air and off board AND not disembark any troops. The "free embark" is an either/or option with disembarking. You can't do both.

frogbear wrote:
Mephiston wrote:
If the troops use a consolidation move post assault to embark the transport may not leave in the end phase.


What is the aircraft was on the ground at the start of the turn however.

A followup move to make it back into the aircraft should allow it to leave...

The "no disengage after consolidation" was decided as a straightforward rule to stop a specific problem. It's written solely in terms of consolidation for the sake of simplicity. Inadvertently hindering another action is a tradeoff for that simplicity.

Personally, I'd probably let you do it in a game, but it is against the rules.
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