Tactical Command
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dropping upgrades at the start of the game
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18890		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Ginger [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  dropping upgrades at the start of the game
Had a game with TRC last night, and the hoary old question came up about formations dropping units at the start of the game in order to gain deployment flexibility.

The usual example cited is for Marines to drop Rhinos in order to use a ThunderHawk, or for a mechanised formation to drop all but one fast vehicle in order to be able to garrison etc. So
  • Can Terminators drop their Dreadnought upgrades in order to teleport instead of some other deployment method? (TRC thought they could)
  • If so, is that 'reduced' formation still the sole BTS where there is another formation with a value that is the same or higher than the cost of the reduced formation? (TRC thought this was also true)
Author:  Mephiston [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: dropping upgrades at the start of the game
Are you talking about the Epic-UK Superior tactics special rule or in more general terms?

In the case of Epic-UK the formation needs the 'plus transport' option to gain the ability so Termies are out. I also thought it specified that if you added upgrades you lost the ability but that must have gone in play testing.

In general terms I don't think the GT scenario or individual lists give any guidance in either case. The rules are clear as to the impact of dropping units in the game.

Not sure which side to come down on right now. I'll give it some thought before Britcon!
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: dropping upgrades at the start of the game
Yes to clarify my thoughts ont he cost - the formation cost is the same, you have merely volunterily weakend it.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: dropping upgrades at the start of the game
Not drop units Mephiston, any formations deployment options by 'dropping' or 'leaving off table' units. Marines are in the original rules either in drop pods or rhinos when doing the list, or either in EpicUK prior to the game if they lack upgrades - thats actually a seperate thing. Here it is any army leaving units in the box for that battle. There is no rule stating you must use everything you have bought.

So for example.

A Devestator formation has 4 land raiders and a hunter. It wishes to garrisson. It can therefor simply not deploy the land raiders and only turn up with a hunter and 4 infantry stands.

A terminator formation with Dreadnoughts wishes to teleport. It can therefor not use the dreadnoughts in that game.

A terminator formation with dreadnoughts wishes to use a thunderhawk. Again it simply doesn't use the dreadnoughts in the game.

It came up a long time ago and should be in the faq (which I can't currently access), I think in relation to siege armies not wanting to use all their barbed wire or all their infantry if they ran out of trench and bunker space (so not deploy the odd unit on board but simply not use it that game).
Author:  Mephiston [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: dropping upgrades at the start of the game
Here is the FAQ you seek :)

Quote:
6.3.1 Space Marine Transports
Q: How and when are Space Marine
transport options selected?
A: Choosing transport options is part of the
army selection process. Portions of a
formation may be left behind during
deployment (to garrison, for example) the
decision to exchange options, even “free”
ones, must be made when the army list is
determined.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: dropping upgrades at the start of the game
So that means yes - my Chaos Terminators may abandon upgrades offboard and teleport in, my imperial guard may abandon their hellhounds offboard to garrisson and so on? (I think the use of the word drop was an unfortunate one :) ).

And then as a subset the formation cost is not affected as that is set during the army list creation phase.
Author:  Mephiston [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: dropping upgrades at the start of the game
Correct, if your massive IG mech company that had loads of upgrades chose to leave them behind to garrison it would still be the BTS.

I guess voluntarily leaving points behind is OK!
Author:  markHargrave [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: dropping upgrades at the start of the game
If you leave a unit behind do you start with a blast marker, if you leave a unit during the game you do so why not during deployment
Author:  Mephiston [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: dropping upgrades at the start of the game
No mention of it so no. Guess you knew before the battle that those units were no longer part of the plan so weren't effected by the lose of them.
Author:  Ginger [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: dropping upgrades at the start of the game
This was also Neal Hunt's view - that you do not get a BM for leaving units out of the formation before the start of the game. I might add, that we all do this automatically - otherwise the intrepid marine Drop podders would all arrive with BMS :)
Author:  Mephiston [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: dropping upgrades at the start of the game
The Marines wouldn't Ginger, as what type of "with Transport" is selected is done at list creation time by the book.

Under Epic-UK you can make an argument for blast markers as the decision is made at reserve selection time, but we would rule against you ;)
Author:  frogbear [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: dropping upgrades at the start of the game
Such a tactic (after seeing an opponent's army) may help a player change his BTS.

Do the formations retain the points value of the units dropped?

Is this then open to all armies and not just Marines? I thought this was a Marine only rule...
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: dropping upgrades at the start of the game
No any armies formation can leave units off table and not use them all game. It does not alter their points value however as that is set prior to the game, not during it.

The most common reason is if you really want to garrisson. Though sometimes you may simply not fit them all on - say you want a formation to occupy some ruins during set-up but they spill over and offer easy kills to enemy. Don't use them this game.

Whether or not they are upgrades is really irrelevant as that just applies during the army list creation phase.
Author:  frogbear [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: dropping upgrades at the start of the game
Welcome back TRC! :D
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