Tactical Command
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/

Rules question - Overwatch
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18889
Page 1 of 2

Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:28 am ]
Post subject:  Rules question - Overwatch

I'm sure this is in the faq, but where?

Essentially planetfalling transport disgorges troops as part of the planetfall, can I overwatch them? Air assault prior to disembark no, but I though disembarking as part of a planetfall was fair game?

And as a side matter you can overwatch at the end of a transports move before troops disembark (into an assault say or to fire)?

And for good measure - if infantry have assaulted into your position (say they are in your bunker or ruins) and you overwatch them - are they now in cover? Likewise if they close combat your tanks can another units shoot at them in the clear, or now because they are touching an AFV (yours!) do they get -1 to hit?

Author:  Mephiston [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules question

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I'm sure this is in the faq, but where?

Essentially planetfalling transport disgorges troops as part of the planetfall, can I overwatch them? Air assault prior to disembark no, but I though disembarking as part of a planetfall was fair game?


Disembarking triggers OW. It's in the 2008 FAQ IIRC.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
And as a side matter you can overwatch at the end of a transports move before troops disembark (into an assault say or to fire)?

No, the troops move isn't an independent move, its an extension of the transports move IMO.
The_Real_Chris wrote:
And for good measure - if infantry have assaulted into your position (say they are in your bunker or ruins) and you overwatch them - are they now in cover? Likewise if they close combat your tanks can another units shoot at them in the clear, or now because they are touching an AFV (yours!) do they get -1 to hit?

Yes to all of this having reviewed the rules as no mention of friendly is included in the rule. Bit odd really but ok by my reading of the rules.

Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules question

What if the tanks were overwatching - if you shoot a unit in contact with your armoured skin you get -1 to hit?

Author:  Mephiston [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules question - Overwatch

By RAW yes. Adding the word "Friendly" to the cover rules re infantry touching AV's may be a future FAQ/Errata?

Author:  Ginger [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules question

Mephiston wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:
I'm sure this is in the faq, but where?

Essentially planetfalling transport disgorges troops as part of the planetfall, can I overwatch them? Air assault prior to disembark no, but I though disembarking as part of a planetfall was fair game?


Disembarking triggers OW. It's in the 2008 FAQ IIRC.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
And as a side matter you can overwatch at the end of a transports move before troops disembark (into an assault say or to fire)?

No, the troops move isn't an independent move, its an extension of the transports move IMO.
The_Real_Chris wrote:
And for good measure - if infantry have assaulted into your position (say they are in your bunker or ruins) and you overwatch them - are they now in cover? Likewise if they close combat your tanks can another units shoot at them in the clear, or now because they are touching an AFV (yours!) do they get -1 to hit?

Yes to all of this having reviewed the rules as no mention of friendly is included in the rule. Bit odd really but ok by my reading of the rules.


From the 2008 FAQ relating to Planetfalling
Quote:
Q: Does Planetfall trigger Overwatch?
A: Landing does not count as movement for the purposes of triggering enemy overwatch fire. Disembarking triggers overwatch fire as normal.


Previously in other threads (that I cannot readily find) Neal suggested that OW against Air formations only happened after disembarkation, while OW against Ground formations could also be applied after the move but before disembarkation, (which forms the FAQ on OW itself).

Author:  Mephiston [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules question - Overwatch

This sentence from 1.7.5 seems clear that I was wrong!

Quote:
Transported units may disembark at the end of any move after the move in which is it was picked up. This
happens after any overwatch shots (see 1.10) but before the moving formation shoots or assaults.


The war engine transport rule also has this sentence in it

Quote:
It can dismount the
transported units at the end of a move in the same way as
a normal transport vehicle (ie, the units are placed within
5cms of the transport at the end of a move).


So 1.7.5 applies to both and you overwatch before disembarkation! Makes Shadowsword's on overwatch even cooler!

Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules question - Overwatch

Though bizzarly a formation like firewarriors can do nothing to a mech formation that assaults out of its vehicles - as their AP fire takes place before the infantry disembarks!

Author:  zombocom [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules question - Overwatch

I too recall a thread where the consensus was that for ground based engagements the OWer could choose to fire before or after then enemy disembarks. For air assaults he can only fire afterwards, because an approach move does not count as movement for overwatch.

1.7.5 says "This happens after any overwatch shots" but that was interpreted as any overwatch shots at the vehicles. It's a timing thing rather than a limitation.

EDIT:

Here's the part from the netERC master FAQ thread:

Quote:
Q: When can I fire OW?As I understand that I can choose to shoot :

1) before my opponent unload troops,
2) after my opponent unload troops and before he shoots or assault
3) after my opponent unload troops and after he shoots or assault

A: After your opponent completes a move OR after disembarking troops, but before he does anything else, including shooting. So option 1 and option 2 but not option 3.


and here's the part about not being able to OW aircraft before they unload:

Quote:
Q: When units appear on the table, for example by teleporting, or spawning, or being summoned, do they trigger Overwatch?
A: No. Only completing a move or disembarking triggers Overwatch.

Also, note that “a move” in the context of Overwatch has been ruled to be a normal ground move. An aerospace move (planetfall or a landing aircraft) does not trigger overwatch, nor does a countercharge move during an assault.

Author:  nealhunt [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules question - Overwatch

I think everything has been covered, but to put it in one post so you don't have to sort through corrections...
The_Real_Chris wrote:
Essentially planetfalling transport disgorges troops as part of the planetfall, can I overwatch them? Air assault prior to disembark no, but I though disembarking as part of a planetfall was fair game?

This is correct. Planetfall does not trigger overwatch for the planetfalling unit. Any related disembark moves, however, DO trigger Overwatch.

Quote:
And as a side matter you can overwatch at the end of a transports move before troops disembark (into an assault say or to fire)?

Yes. Overwatch has the option to fire before a transport disembarks (while troops are still loaded) or after the troops dismount.

Quote:
And for good measure - if infantry have assaulted into your position (say they are in your bunker or ruins) and you overwatch them - are they now in cover?

Yes. If you need a rationale, they closed too quickly for you to fire at them while they were in the open. It's similar to the fact that you cannot fire at a formation in the middle of a move. If they can hope from one piece of cover to another in a single move, they're just crossing your field of fire too quickly for you to gain a good fire opportunity.

Quote:
Likewise if they close combat your tanks can another units shoot at them in the clear, or now because they are touching an AFV (yours!) do they get -1 to hit?

Personally, we've never allowed cover for touching an enemy AV but with the RAW, I'd have to say yes.

Author:  Mephiston [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules question - Overwatch

And to preempt your next question TRC, a house rule will be in infect for Britcon that infantry units can only claim cover from friendly AV's. I'll inform everyone before their first game starts.

Author:  zombocom [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules question - Overwatch

I quite like the idea of enemy infantry claiming cover from your AVs. It can represent lots of things; having to be more careful when shooting at enemies close to your vehicles; the difficulties of firing a tank at point blank range against an opponent attacking you etc.

Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules question - Overwatch

Conversely hosing infantry with machine gun fire whilst they try to kill immobilised vehicles was a common WW2 tactic as they were hopefully immune to your shells.

Author:  dptdexys [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules question - Overwatch

Mephiston wrote:
And to preempt your next question TRC, a house rule will be in infect for Britcon that infantry units can only claim cover from friendly AV's. I'll inform everyone before their first game starts.


You could use the FAQ 1.12.5 (2nd question) to cover this, although it really means CC and FF attacks not overwatch shooting.

Author:  Ginger [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules question - Overwatch

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Conversely hosing infantry with machine gun fire whilst they try to kill immobilised vehicles was a common WW2 tactic as they were hopefully immune to your shells.

Intruiging non-sequitor here Chris. 'Hosing down' your own tanks indicates that it was a necessary tactic, but does not indicate how usefull the 'cover' was to the attacking enemy.

Other comments notwithstanding, I quite like the concept of gaining cover from any AV irrespective of who owns it. If we accept that an enemy assaulting into ruins etc gains cover because he moved 'too quickly' for the defenders to shoot, why not apply the same logic here?

Author:  Mephiston [ Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules question - Overwatch

'cos my tanks aren't a static pile of bricks and other detritus! Sure they could stand still and let the enemy attach charges to them but personally I think I might just jink about a bit and crush the stupid mud feet myself!

Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/