Tactical Command
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Rules Clarification - Assault stalling, LOF and stuff
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18323		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Tue May 04, 2010 5:54 am ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarification - Assault stalling, LOF and stuff
Just curious on a rules vs intent thing within 1.12.5

The relevant sections.

"while units that are not in base contact but are within 15cm and have a line of fire to an enemy unit can use their firefight
value."

"If all of the attacking units directly engaged in the assault are killed then the assault has stalled and the defender wins (go straight to 1.12.8). 'Directly engaged' means being within 15cm of a defending unit after charge and counter-charge moves have been completed. If even one of the original attackers that were within 15cm of the enemy survives, then the attack has not stalled."

From a literal interpretation, if I assault an opposing formation, and I have units within 15cm of the enemy, but more than 10cm into cover (and hence avoiding LOF as defined by 1.9.2), the attack can't be stalled by my casualties.

Or does the section
"Hits may only be allocated to units that were directly engaged in the combat (i.e., that belonged to the attacking or defending formation and which were within 15cm of the enemy after charge and counter-charge moves were completed)."
override the need for LOF for assignment of hits, only affecting a unit's capacity to participate themselves? Seems weird that a Marine can't Firefight, but can be killed by a "flying PowerFist/Firefight attack".

Morgan Vening
Author:  frogbear [ Tue May 04, 2010 6:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules Clarification - Assault stalling, LOF and stuff
This question came up after I inferred that I could clip a Titan with one unit while the rest remained in cover (within15cm yet further than 10cm). This led me to further state that the titan could only see, and therefore kill, one stand. If I had the numbers + Inspiring + no BM, I could effectively have +3 on a dice roll when clipping the titan.

If this was the case, I would do it with a Gretchin model just to add insult to injury :D
Author:  frogbear [ Tue May 04, 2010 8:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules Clarification - Assault stalling, LOF and stuff
My gretchin are mighty! :D
Author:  Angel_of_Caliban [ Tue May 04, 2010 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules Clarification - Assault stalling, LOF and stuff
frogbear wrote:
My gretchin are mighty! :D

Only because that's the only type of settlements you have! I guess having only Ork encampments are good for something, like breeding "Mighty" gretchin. =)
Author:  Mephiston [ Tue May 04, 2010 9:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules Clarification - Assault stalling, LOF and stuff
Hmmm, RAW seem to agree with you. However if you add "and LOF" to both "within 15cms" and I think you get to what was intended.
Author:  mspaetauf [ Tue May 04, 2010 9:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules Clarification - Assault stalling, LOF and stuff
what about formation coherency? Unless you have scouts, the one base cannot stay away more than 5 cm from the rest of the unit.

cheers,
Author:  frogbear [ Tue May 04, 2010 10:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules Clarification - Assault stalling, LOF and stuff
mspaetauf wrote:
what about formation coherency? Unless you have scouts, the one base cannot stay away more than 5 cm from the rest of the unit.
cheers,


The one thing that has not been taken into account is the War engine Counter Charge. So yes, it could get two kills.

So lets add that up (orks not causing a wound)

Titan: 2 + D6 Worst=3 Best=8
Orks (best scenario) 2 (BM) + 1 (Inspiring) + 2 (numbers) + D6 Worst=6 Best=11

Not bad odds at all for breaking that Titan.

I do not believe you would ever see it eventuate however - but it may becoime a future goal ;)
Author:  frogbear [ Tue May 04, 2010 10:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules Clarification - Assault stalling, LOF and stuff
Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
frogbear wrote:
My gretchin are mighty! :D

Only because that's the only type of settlements you have! I guess having only Ork encampments are good for something, like breeding "Mighty" gretchin. =)


Ah yes, the home ground advantage. It is a sweet thing indeed.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue May 04, 2010 10:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules Clarification - Assault stalling, LOF and stuff
I would definitely play this "RAI" rather than "RAW".

Simply because the "RAW" in this situation seems like a gamey, cheap, trick.
Author:  Ginger [ Tue May 04, 2010 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules Clarification - Assault stalling, LOF and stuff
I would agree E&C.

The intention is that the assault has stalled if all participating attackers have been killed.

The fact that terrain limits the participants to 10cm rather than 15cm should be referred to in all relevant sections. This has evidently been ommitted in error.
Author:  mspaetauf [ Tue May 04, 2010 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules Clarification - Assault stalling, LOF and stuff
frogbear wrote:
The one thing that has not been taken into account is the War engine Counter Charge. So yes, it could get two kills.


???
what's formation got to do with the number of kills the titan can score?

If you decide to move your grots into base contact, the titan can score as many kills as it has attacks (depends on the d-roll of course). There is no limitation on number of hits, you just have to assign them from closest to furthest away. So if the titan scores 8 hits in CC, you have to assign those 8 hits to units within 15 cm.

With FF you need the LOS as mentioned by the OP.

Apart from that you have to keep your formation, so either the base at the front has to be a scout base (thus making it possible to stay up to 20 cm away from the rest), or all the units are scouts. If that is not the case, you cannot do this kind of "clipping attack".

cheers,
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue May 04, 2010 11:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules Clarification - Assault stalling, LOF and stuff
You could do it by using a thin building or similar to block LOS between the majority of the formation and the assaulted formation.
Author:  frogbear [ Tue May 04, 2010 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules Clarification - Assault stalling, LOF and stuff
mspaetauf wrote:
If you decide to move your grots into base contact,


FF range is 15cm. If I engage at that range and then keep another 5cm behind that and then the rest behind that one. Now put them in a forest where the 2nd guy is on the 10cm line of vision. Then you will see what I mean.

I am not saying I agree with the rule. It was a jest with Morgan and a challenge to prove me wrong.

If I was playing it, I would state that LoS was imperative to an assault.

Why so serious? ;D
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Tue May 04, 2010 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rules Clarification - Assault stalling, LOF and stuff
mspaetauf wrote:
the titan can score as many kills as it has attacks (depends on the d-roll of course). There is no limitation on number of hits, you just have to assign them from closest to furthest away. So if the titan scores 8 hits in CC, you have to assign those 8 hits to units within 15 cm.

Actually, there is a limitation. 3.3.2. Any attacks assigned as CC by a War Engine can only be applied to those in base contact. Any attacks assigned as FF by a War Engine can only be applied to those NOT in base contact.

Not really relevant to the original situation, but bears mentioning.

For the record, I agree with Mephiston's "errata", as being the way it's intended. It was originally a hypothetical, but it has the potential to really screw things up.

Morgan Vening
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