Tactical Command
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WW1 Epic
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18002		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  bartholomew [ Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:  WW1 Epic
First of all, I really don't know where to put this post, so I've put in the general area. :)

I'm writing some rules up for WW1 infantry, weapons, vehicles and whatever else they had back then. But I've come up with a problem, the Rifles of age were incredibly long ranged weapons and I don't know whether to give them (15cm) Small arms or to give them something like 20-30cm AP6+.

Any help would be great, also if there are any WW1 rules out there I would like to see them so I don't have to right every tank variant out XD
Author:  zombocom [ Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:37 am ]
Post subject:  WW1 Epic
Range isn't the issue; effective range is. Rifles of the era had a long range, but across shellholes, smoke, darkness and uneven terrain when firing from such a low position as trench warfare the effective range is much lower.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:31 am ]
Post subject:  WW1 Epic
Yes, that is correct, max. effective range is what you are looking for.  And for gaming purposes 15cm is fine ...   15cm is supposed to equal something like 250m - 300m.  Which is where the majority of firefights take place.   Not so much becuase of the weapon's range, but how readily a target can be aquired with the nake eye. And take my word for it ... a human sized target at 300 meters is tiny ...
Author:  Carrington [ Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:48 am ]
Post subject:  WW1 Epic
Greg Novak had a good WWI rules set, IIRC: Over the Top, I think.

But WWI is a hard period to simulate -- only rarely does the term 'firefight' actually apply, at least on the Western Front.
Author:  Spectrar Ghost [ Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:11 am ]
Post subject:  WW1 Epic
Quote: (Legion 4 @ Feb. 23 2010, 19:31 )

And take my word for it ... a human sized target at 300 meters is tiny ...

That's reassuring...



But that's the Armed Forces in a nutshell: Doing what needs to be Done so you don't have to.  :)
Author:  lordgoober [ Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:20 am ]
Post subject:  WW1 Epic
Honestly though I would think that the Baran Siegemasters army list would make a good start on what you might do for ww1 style units.
Author:  Spectrar Ghost [ Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:45 am ]
Post subject:  WW1 Epic
No doubt, as that is the inspiration for the Baran/DKoK style warfare. The question is how many units don't cross-map well enough, and what units cross-map to what.

Certainly Deathstrikes, Rapiers, Hellhounds, Griffons, Blitzen, and AC/SC do not make the transition properly. The Ragnarok would need to be downgunned, as the MkIs never carried anything bigger than a 4-pounder, IIRC. The FT-17s were the only turreted tank in WWI, I think. There are probably just too many changes needed to simply modify the list.

I would start with a TO&E if you can find such a thing. Divide the personal weapons into categories; small arms, machine guns (AP), anti-tank rifles (AT), Field Arty., Infantry Guns, Heavy Arty., etc. From there you can make estimations on stats.

Good Luck!
Author:  Legion 4 [ Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  WW1 Epic
Quote: (Spectrar Ghost @ Feb. 24 2010, 03:11 )

Quote: (Legion 4 @ Feb. 23 2010, 19:31 )

And take my word for it ... a human sized target at 300 meters is tiny ...

That's reassuring...



But that's the Armed Forces in a nutshell: Doing what needs to be Done so you don't have to.  :)

Yes, regardless of what you are packing(rifle, assault rifle or carbine) ... generally unless you are using a scope (or are SGT York !) ...  300ms is generally the best you are going to do with open sights. And that does not include battlefield clutter, terrain, etc. ...  So again 15cm = 250m is good ...
Author:  Carrington [ Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:58 pm ]
Post subject:  WW1 Epic
Quote: (Legion 4 @ Feb. 24 2010, 14:00 )

Quote: (Spectrar Ghost @ Feb. 24 2010, 03:11 )

Quote: (Legion 4 @ Feb. 23 2010, 19:31 )

And take my word for it ... a human sized target at 300 meters is tiny ...

That's reassuring...



But that's the Armed Forces in a nutshell: Doing what needs to be Done so you don't have to.  :)

Yes, regardless of what you are packing(rifle, assault rifle or carbine) ... generally unless you are using a scope (or are SGT York !) ...  300ms is generally the best you are going to do with open sights. And that does not include battlefield clutter, terrain, etc. ...  So again 15cm = 250m is good ...

"shoot straight, you b****ds, don't make a mess of it."

I guess my main concern would be whether 'firefights' make much sense at all in a WWI context.  The question for me would be whether that kind of decisive result actually represets the dynamics of a WWI engagement.

But perhaps, given the right force to space ratios -- i.e. densely packed -- you'd get the right kind of results.
Author:  bartholomew [ Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  WW1 Epic
Thanks so i'm keeping with the (15cm) Small arms then, i was thinking of modifying the rules for it things such as morale, and firefighting.

Tanks will be the equivalent usefulness as support teams with quite a bit of armour, like they should be for that period, being upgrades for infantry formations. They really suck as destroying each other as the 3 pounder is only a AP6+/AT5+ weapon. Only problem with the tanks is that the Germans have very little in the tank realm so I thinking of doing a WW2 mod as well.

I'm writing some lists that are reminiscent to the Barans/DKoK army lists, with many many stands of infantry being used in 2000pt armies.

Does anyone have a EPIC unit calculator, for the tanks?
Author:  BlackLegion [ Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:27 pm ]
Post subject:  WW1 Epic
Actually without artillery, handgrenades or firing point blank in the sight slits you could do nothing against a tank in WW1.

Quote: 

Does anyone have a EPIC unit calculator, for the tanks?

A what? :rock:
Author:  bartholomew [ Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  WW1 Epic
Quote: (BlackLegion @ Feb. 24 2010, 17:27 )

Actually without artillery, handgrenades or firing point blank in the sight slits you could do nothing against a tank in WW1.

Quote: 

Does anyone have a EPIC unit calculator, for the tanks?

A what? :rock:

:blush: I realise how vague my message was, I was wondering if there is a Unit Points calculator for Epic, its difficult to assign points values?

The only thing with any AT value is the AT rifle (AT6+) (who'd guess :p) and the 3 pounder (AP6+/AT5+), and aircraft don't forget aircraft in the latter era of the war.  :)
Author:  BlackLegion [ Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  WW1 Epic
For "calculating" points values you should read this thread :)
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/ ... =4;t=17977

AntiTank Rifle with AT6+? Hmmmm i rather would give it AT7+. Managing to cause enough penetrating hits on a WW1 tank to render it inoperable would be a very difficult task.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:  WW1 Epic
Quote: (bartholomew @ Feb. 24 2010, 17:20 )

Thanks so i'm keeping with the (15cm) Small arms then, i was thinking of modifying the rules for it things such as morale, and firefighting.

Tanks will be the equivalent usefulness as support teams with quite a bit of armour, like they should be for that period, being upgrades for infantry formations. They really suck as destroying each other as the 3 pounder is only a AP6+/AT5+ weapon. Only problem with the tanks is that the Germans have very little in the tank realm so I thinking of doing a WW2 mod as well.

I'm writing some lists that are reminiscent to the Barans/DKoK army lists, with many many stands of infantry being used in 2000pt armies.

Does anyone have a EPIC unit calculator, for the tanks?

Infantry will close within 250m OR less ... That's how infantry captures & holds ground ... it's their mission ...
Author:  Irondeath [ Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:  WW1 Epic
Quote: (BlackLegion @ Feb. 24 2010, 22:47 )

AntiTank Rifle with AT6+? Hmmmm i rather would give it AT7+. Managing to cause enough penetrating hits on a WW1 tank to render it inoperable would be a very difficult task.

Would it?

Armour was rather thin, spalling a major problem (british crews were issued chain-mail face masks), engines primitive and prone to fail at the slightest provocation. A penetrating hit even from a solid-core AT-rifle bullet means armour fragments and the ricocheting bullet in the fighting compartment, wounding/killing crew and possibly damaging the engine.

If AT rifles were useless they would not have been in the ToE of all major armies in WW2. That they became obsolete in 1942/43 cannot be held against their WW1 performance.

Also remember that an E:A kill means "combat inoperative" and not "exploded and burning fiercely".
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