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why do I have to move?

 Post subject: why do I have to move?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:28 pm 
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Huge clarification required here.

If a unit starts in a ZOC does the unit have to move into base to base?  Lets say I have guardians in the ZOC of Rough riders which have scout.  My action would be to engage and firefight. Under the rules for engage it states "Make the move normally, as described in the movement rules"

1.7 MOVEMENT
"A unit is never forced to move"

Under rule "make charge move" 1.12.3
Once a unit has entered the targets ZOC the requirement to move base contact takes precedence over other restrictions.

Is there a differnce between entering a ZOC and starting in a ZOC?

Question is , Do you have to move during an engage action?




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 Post subject: why do I have to move?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:22 pm 
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I have interpreted this differently, If you start in a ZoC and you engage, you can move directly out of the ZoC and still fire fight, just as long as you are still within 15cm. I understand that if you enter a ZoC as part of an engagement then you have to make every effort to get into BtB.

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 Post subject: why do I have to move?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:35 pm 
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If you are in the ZoC of the target of your Engage action, you have to move to base contact.  Whether you start there or enter during your normal move does not matter.

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 Post subject: why do I have to move?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:23 pm 
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Interesting! This makes assaulty scouts like Rough Riders better than I'd realised. Will have to use this in my games.


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 Post subject: why do I have to move?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:31 pm 
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Or skimmer/scouts. Ugh.


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 Post subject: why do I have to move?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:52 pm 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ Feb. 05 2010, 13:35 )

If you are in the ZoC of the target of your Engage action, you have to move to base contact.  Whether you start there or enter during your normal move does not matter.

So, it seems there's always somebody who gets more confused by the explanation than the original question, and this time its me...

Are you saying Neal that 1) during a normal engage action in which you start outside of the enemy's ZoC that you have to move into BtB contact if you have the move to do so, even at the expense of using suboptimal stats? (extreme example: an IG coy. engages some terminators, but the cc 6+ guardsmen have to move into BtB rather than use their 5+ ff?) and 2) same question for starting within scouts' ZoC, although from your answer that seems to be more clearly 'yes' .

Carrington, if the answer to #1 above is 'yes', I'd actually rather be ZoC'd by skimmers if I have a weak cc stat, as the skimmers have to volunteer to be cc'd (float away rather than get into BtB).

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 Post subject: why do I have to move?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:56 pm 
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He's saying that if you start in ZoC, you must move into Base to Base IF you engage. If you don't engage, you have to move directly out of ZoC.

Chances of you starting in non-scout ZoC are pretty low though, I don't think your Guardsmen will be charging Terminators that often.




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 Post subject: why do I have to move?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:03 pm 
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Here's a conceptual explanation of why you "have to base" when in a ZoC, particularly a scouts ZoC, and ways to mitigate it that I wrote in another thread:

Quote: 

This is normally not a "problem" as the enemy ZoC is only 5cm, so there's no need to base them, unless you've somehow started your activation within it; this "must base" only happens with scouts' 10cm ZoC as that represents the "possible" locations of the scouting troops.  

The soldiers "on the ground" don't have the god's eye view the players do, nor do they "take turns", as the players do, nor do they stand on little rectangles like the models do.  The scouts' extended ZoC is similar to the concept of an electron probabilty cloud, the actual scouts are "somewhere in there", which is why the enemy has to react differently to them than more closely operating enemy troops.  It's an abstraction of the "unknown" location of the units for the troops on the ground.  As they move around in the "scout probability cloud", there's a high likelihood of them making dangerously close contact with the scouting elements; the game represents this by forcing you to base in this situation.

And, if you're more that 5cm away, and don't want to base, just use a "cautious move" of 5cm... simple.  Or, simply base the nearest scout with a sacrificial unit, negating its zone of control, and now you can move your other models more freely.  There are many ways to deal with the situation.

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 Post subject: why do I have to move?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:54 pm 
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To expand a bit...
==

If you're outside the enemy ZoC to start, you don't have any unusual move restrictions (just the normal formation coherency, etc.).

If you start outside and choose to enter the enemy's ZoC, you must then attempt to reach base contact with the unit whose ZoC you entered.  In other words, once you get that close to the enemy you are committed to CC.


If you start inside the enemy ZoC, you must either Engage that enemy or move out of their ZoC.

If you Engage the unit whose ZoC you are in, it's treated the same as if you entered the ZoC voluntarily.  You must move to base contact.

If you do not want to Engage that enemy, any action that allows you to move out of the ZoC is legal.  That includes declaring an Engage action against a different target, as long as the activating formation uses its charge move to exit the enemy ZoC as required.

==

I think that gets all the permutations.  Ask if I've missed something.

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 Post subject: why do I have to move?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:23 pm 
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Ok. Assuming a unit starts in a ZoC (of Scouts) and takes an Engage action. Has it to move in BtB or can it move 0cm and use FF (assuming the opponent doesn't countercharge or countercharges not far enough to reach BtB)?




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 Post subject: why do I have to move?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:01 pm 
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Note there are two slightly different conditions here, referring to the formation and a unit in the formation.

If a formation has one or more units inside the ZoC of an enemy, that formation must either engage that enemy, or move away from it. If the formation successfully activates to engage the enemy, the unit(s) that are inside the ZoC must move into B-B with the enemy. The rest of the formation may move as it likes, but any units that enter the ZoC must also attempt to move into B-B. At the end of the move, any unit(s) that are out of coherency get removed before the assault takes place.

However, if the formation elects to do something else, it must move away from the enemy that ZoCs its units. The formation can make a second enemy formation the target of shooting or even an engage move, providing it moves out of the ZoC of the initial enemy.

I might add that there are two situations where this can occur:- Scouts can place enemy unit(s) in their ZoC (except for other scouts of course); and Fearless unit(s) that have lost an assault can elect to remain in place, keeping the winners in their ZoC unless they consolidate away.




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 Post subject: why do I have to move?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:38 am 
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I want clarification mainly on the sentence under 1.7 Movement that clearly states.

"A unit is never forced to move"      

I understand that if a unit starts in ZOC then it must charge the enemy or leave when it takes an action. So I declare a engage. Under 1.6 THE ACTION PHASE The Engage Actions states the formation  May  make one  charge move and then fight an assault. Why cant I stay stationary? If a decide to move then yes, straight into B2B but I choose not to move because a unit is never forced to move then my move is finished and we start the assault.  enemy counters etc
Please have a re read of movement rules because under the rules of MAKE Charge MOVE its states Make the move normally as described in the movement rules given previuosly.




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