And another one wrong, and another one wrong,
Another wrong bites the dust.
Hey, gonna get your Necs!
Another wrong bites the dust...
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| close combat attacks http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17776 |
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| Author: | mnb [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | close combat attacks |
can a unit move into contact with multiple units when engaging in close combat? for instance, a unit w/ a first strike extra attack might kill his opponent and then be left with no one to attack when regular attacks are rolled. can he be in base contact with another unit to prevent this? |
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| Author: | Chroma [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | close combat attacks |
Quote: (mnb @ Jan. 27 2010, 01:17 ) can a unit move into contact with multiple units when engaging in close combat? for instance, a unit w/ a first strike extra attack might kill his opponent and then be left with no one to attack when regular attacks are rolled. can he be in base contact with another unit to prevent this? Unless the enemy units were *precisely* the same distance away from the attacker, the answer is "no", as you must move to engage the nearest enemy if you're attempting to get into close combat, since you must attempt to negate its zone of control via basing. If the enemy counter-charges into you, then you might get your other attacks, but you can't move to base multiple enemies unless you're a war engine. |
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| Author: | Moscovian [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | close combat attacks |
And another one wrong, and another one wrong, Another wrong bites the dust. Hey, gonna get your Necs! Another wrong bites the dust...
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| Author: | Morgan Vening [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | close combat attacks |
Quote: (Hena @ Jan. 27 2010, 07:24 ) If you have Infiltrate you can do this as it allows moving through ZoC. Without it, you must be exactly (and this in practice never happens) equal length when you hit the ZoC of two units. Why? If you don't start in an enemy's ZoC and you have more than sufficient movement, surely you could just say "I move to be in the intersection of these two models when I enter ZoC". Else you're just going to be arguing about millimeters. Or disallow it (excepting Barge or countercharge). Morgan Vening |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | close combat attacks |
Quote: (mnb @ Jan. 27 2010, 01:17 ) can a unit move into contact with multiple units when engaging in close combat? for instance, a unit w/ a first strike extra attack might kill his opponent and then be left with no one to attack when regular attacks are rolled. can he be in base contact with another unit to prevent this? It is possible. As others pointed out, it's more difficult than it sounds. You have to have sufficient movement to maneuver so as to enter 2 ZoCs at exactly the same time and still have enough movement left to contact both. You might get away with it a couple times on the front row of the enemy but once you have to move around units to get deeper into the enemy formation, it's virtually impossible. Infiltrate is required to do it consistently. If you killed a unit in CC/First Strike, you would still get to use FF value for the rest of the fight. You don't lose everything. |
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| Author: | mnb [ Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | close combat attacks |
so normal units no, inflitraters yes? i was going to ask that as part of my original question but forgot. |
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| Author: | McMullet [ Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | close combat attacks |
I'm not too sure about this. Assault moves: "A charging unit that enters a zone of control must move into base contact with the nearest enemy whose zone of control has been entered to the limits of the charging unit’s remaining movement. Once a unit has entered the target’s Zone of Control the requirement to move to base contact takes precedence over other restrictions and it may move through another unit’s Zone of Control, even if that unit is not in the target formation." Zones of Control: "Units may not enter an enemy zone of control while they move, unless they are undertaking an engage action and use their charge move to get into base contact with the nearest enemy unit whose zone of control they have entered." It doesn't say you must move directly towards the target unit, only that you must contact the unit whose ZoC you entered first. There's nothing to prevent you also contacting a second unit; essentially, you may not ignore closer unit, but you may attack another unit as well. |
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| Author: | mattthemuppet [ Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | close combat attacks |
I've always played it that you can BtB up to 2 enemy stands as long as your base can physically touch them without moving them. Never really had a problem with it - if anyone CCs my Guardians they're usually screwed anyway  And Mosc, you're such a stirrer! |
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| Author: | Moscovian [ Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | close combat attacks |
Quote: (mattthemuppet @ Jan. 28 2010, 10:32 ) I've always played it that you can BtB up to 2 enemy stands as long as your base can physically touch them without moving them. Never really had a problem with it - if anyone CCs my Guardians they're usually screwed anyway And Mosc, you're such a stirrer! Actually, Mnb asked me if it was okay and I said, "Yeah, sure, that sounds about right." Once again, I got it wrong. Of course, after being on the receiving end of the doubling up in assaults, I am glad I got it wrong. It made HUGE differences in our last game where the Elysians came into contact with the Necrons. |
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| Author: | mattthemuppet [ Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | close combat attacks |
I guess that's the difference between friendly games and more tournament like games - stuff that's covered in the 5min warmup. For some reason, I (and the guys I started playing Epic with over Vassal) always assumed that because WE can base 2 units per point of DC, then normal units could base 2 other units in CC. Fluff wise I can't see why berserk CC units shouldn't be able to flail around and take out 2 other units, after all, they're crazy CC specialists right? Plus, if you try to be this precise in Vassal it would literally take DAYS to finish a game. Sometimes it's easy just to say "all of these can get into BtB, ok, lets roll dice!" |
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| Author: | mnb [ Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | close combat attacks |
now that i read mcmullet's post, i'm not so sure. looks like you could be in base contact w/ 2 units without having infiltrate. |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | close combat attacks |
Quote: (mnb @ Jan. 28 2010, 22:03 ) now that i read mcmullet's post, i'm not so sure. looks like you could be in base contact w/ 2 units without having infiltrate. Yes, you can. We said that. To recap, a normal unit can move into base contact with two enemy units if it can enter both the ZoCs simultaneously. In practice, this usually means that the front line of attackers can hit more than one unit each if they desire. Just picture 2 overlapping circles and you can see how a rectangle could be moved into contact with both circles at the same time. However, once those front units are "used up" and the attackers have to move around both their own units and the other defenders, it becomes nearly impossible to enter multiple defender ZoCs simultaneously. Sometimes it becomes impossible to reach any other defenders in base contact and once you reach that point, you might as well go 1-to-1. With Infiltrate, you can ignore ZoC restrictions and move freely in a charge/countercharge, contacting whoever you like within the limits of movement and model size. === The FAQs clarify some of the language McMullet posted. Once entering ZoC, you're supposed to move toward that particular unit. That's not exactly explicit in the rule text. Quote: Q: How should we interpret section 1.12.3 when it says “Remember that a charging unit that enters a zone of control must move into base contact with the nearest enemy whose zone of control has been entered†|
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| Author: | mattthemuppet [ Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | close combat attacks |
ah, I get it now - the first line of units can be based 2 to 1 attacker, but anything inside the defending Fm can only be based 1 to 1. Seems simple enough and, gloriously, everyone's right! (except Mosc, who's going to get a beating at mnb's hands as punishment )
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