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Discussion of Clipping Assaults

 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:02 pm 
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Ok, this is to discuss the subject that was raised in another thread without further derailing it away from its original topic.

Sorry TRC I have to disagree about clipping.

IMO, clipping is not realistically represented in EA.

I can understand that it could happen that one unit gets close enough to part of another to open fire with their short range weapons, and if it was just that, like a shooting attack, I would agree.

But clipping assaults are resolved in the same manner as full-blooded, hand to hand, close combat assaults.  And those are too quite different situations.

One is close range sniping at the edge of the enemy.  The other is a full assault designed to push the enemy out the way.

Personally, I would like to see a rule that specified that over half the (defending) formation must be in engagement range before resolution was made (otherwise the units exchnage FF attacks as if it was shooting).  I realise this would be a rule that most people probably see as unecessary, but IMO it would remove a lot of the "annoying" elements of clipping from EA.

It would also help the current imbalance between CC-specialists and FF-specialists.

(Maybe it's just me that is a little tired of every FF assault being an attempt to clip, and all the extreme micro-measuring associated with that kind of play.)

Is what I posted to get it started.. in this thread





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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:09 pm 
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The discussion was getting a little bogged down with one example.

I guess this is one of those situations where I think that the rules do not suitably simulate the reality they are meant to.

And means that players play according to the rules and not "common sense" (I am referring to the phenomenon that people have suggested exists in W40K where tactics are about playing the rules and not to do with movement and strategy etc).


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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:09 pm 
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Against a massive ork horde it may be physically impossiabel for some small formations to engage them in a fire fight then. Seems harsh to me.


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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:13 pm 
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It wouldn't be impossible.  But it might mean that your small formation wouldm't get the opportunity to break to "massive ork horde" in one activation.

Does that seem wrong?  Should one small formation be able to break a "massive ork horde"?  Especially when most of the horde don't even see an enemy.


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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:15 pm 
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Quote: (clausewitz @ 16 Jul. 2009, 19:13 )

Should one small formation be able to break a "massive ork horde"?  Especially when most of the horde don't even see an enemy.

That's supposed to represent panic spreading down the line, formation cohesion breaking down as men stream away from the killzone shouting "WE'RE DONE FOR! RUN! RUN! RUN!"

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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:15 pm 
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Such a rule change would require a rebalancing of almost all the formation point costs in the game, as large formations would become far more worthwhile, and so would have to cost more.

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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:22 pm 
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Yeah, I have already said that I am aware it will never happen.

But large formations being more worthwhile wouldn't be a bad thing IMO.  Because right now its all about activation count.


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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:26 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 16 Jul. 2009, 19:15 )

Quote: (clausewitz @ 16 Jul. 2009, 19:13 )

Should one small formation be able to break a "massive ork horde"?  Especially when most of the horde don't even see an enemy.

That's supposed to represent panic spreading down the line, formation cohesion breaking down as men stream away from the killzone shouting "WE'RE DONE FOR! RUN! RUN! RUN!"

Yeah its suppossed to represent that.

As it stands the rules don't distinguish between a FF clipping assault and a full-blown every unit involved CC engagement.

Why risk the CC engagement when a FF clip "breaks" the enemy just as much?

But I believe that a CC victory would enable a out of the enemy and subsequent capture of the ground they were holding.  It just seems less believeable when it done via clipping.


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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:28 pm 
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The issue for me was more about the token assault were often one or two units were used to bring down overwhelming support fire. The changes to the assault rules largly fixed this process, or at least made it a real risk.

Personally clipping is something I can live with.


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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:29 pm 
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Why risk the CC engagement when a FF clip "breaks" the enemy just as much?


Since most armies aren't focused on CC, they have little reason to ever want to engage in CC, therefore much of the skill of the game is found in manuevering to catch the flank of the enemy formation, clip them, break them, and turn their flank.

CC focused armies like Orks or Tyranids have clear incentives to want to engage in CC (they kill more and get a better resolution score!).

I'll answer E&C there...

Waiting... :))




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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:48 pm 
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Lol, I answered you in a general way E&C  :))

therefore much of the skill of the game is found in manuevering to catch the flank of the enemy formation, clip them, break them, and turn their flank.


Does that sound like what Epic was intended to be?

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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:53 pm 
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Does that sound like what Epic was intended to be?


What I described was a simulation style mechanic with a level of abstraction applied in order to make it playable in a reasonable time frame.

A semi-abstract simulation style wargame... Sounds like Epic to me.

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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:58 pm 
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Lets be more specific E&C.

What I quoted was...

therefore much of the skill of the game is found in manuevering to catch the flank of the enemy formation, clip them


Which suggests that the skill in Epic is in using (or abusing depending on your opinion) the clipping concept is the measure of skill for much of the game.

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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:06 pm 
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Quote: (clausewitz @ 16 Jul. 2009, 19:58 )

Which suggests that the skill in Epic is in using (or abusing depending on your opinion) the clipping concept is the measure of skill for much of the game.

To me it's more a representation of "Maneuver warfare" which "seeks to shatter the enemy’s cohesion through a variety of rapid, focused, and unexpected actions which create a turbulent and rapidly deteriorating situation with which the enemy cannot cope."

The measure of "skill" in that regard is in *NOT* letting your opponent use "clipping" as an easy tactic and setting up mutually supporting formations as you maneuver about the battlefield.




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 Post subject: Discussion of Clipping Assaults
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:06 pm 
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I said 'much of' not 'the majority of'.

There are many many different tactics available to the player in Epic, of which Clipping is just one.

It is an intended, representational part of the rule system, and when you're caught on the recieving end of a well-executed clip it is certainly frustrating, but it is a rare day when you can say "there was nothing I could have done to prevent that horrid Clip".

The point being that it takes skill to set up and execute a Clip well, and it takes skill to deny the enemy the possibility of Clipping.


That's one of the things I love about Epic, as a game it contains lots of these skill-based "manuever-rewards", unlike a game like Warhammer 40,000 which tends to reward basic Strategies to the exclusion of in-game Tactical gambits.




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