Tactical Command
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Rules Clarification - Disrupt and Disposable
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17019		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarification - Disrupt and Disposable
Another issue that came up that may have been handled incorrectly.

How is assignment of different sources of same 'speed' special attacks handled?

The specific example we had, was a unit of three Disposable, and 2 'norms'. Received 7 Disrupt hits, and 2 standard hits. Do all of one kind get assigned first? ie: one Disrupt on all, extra on two Disposable, then a standard hit on the last Disposable, and finally the last standard hit on a 'norm'.

Or, as I believed, he had to assign 9 hits. 2 Disrupt to each expendable, a Disrupt and standard to a 'norm', and a standard to the last 'norm'.

It only ended up being one difference and irrelevant because the formation broke, but in different situations (6 Disrupt/3 Standard), it could have made the difference in breaking the unit or not.

Obviously the ruling would also apply to Ignore Cover as well

Morgan Vening
Author:  Dave [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarification - Disrupt and Disposable
Going by what Neal proposed, you should maximize the effectiveness of the disrupt hits by placing them on non-disposable units if possible. In other words, the attacker got those hits and shouldn't be short changed.

The same applies for ignore cover, if the attacker has ignore cover hits they should be applied to those units in cover if at all possible.

And while we're at it, the same for Lance too. Those should be applied to units with RA if possible.
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarification - Disrupt and Disposable
Problem is, it's the Defender who assigns the hits.

Quote: 

1.9.6 Allocate Hits & Make Saving Throws
You must allocate hits inflicted on your formation against targets that are within range and   line of fire of the enemy. Hits are allocated ‘from the front to the back’ of a formation. Note that this is the opposite of suppression. AP hits can only be allocated against infantry units, and AT hits may only be allocated against armoured vehicles. Hits must be allocated to the closest potential target first. You may not allocate a second hit to a unit until one hit has been allocated to every potential target, or allocate a third hit until all targets have been allocated two hits, etc.


So he can potentially screw them up, if he's allowed to assign for a 2 Disposable (in front), 2 Normal unit receiving 4 Disrupt, 4 Normal hits, "1 Disrupt, 1 Disrupt, 1 Normal, 1 Normal. Allocating second Hits, 1 Disrupt, 1 Disrupt, 1 Normal, 1 Normal."

Morgan Vening
Author:  nealhunt [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarification - Disrupt and Disposable
Quote: (Morgan Vening @ Oct. 29 2009, 15:22 )

Problem is, it's the Defender who assigns the hits.

Yep, but it was clarified in one of the very first FAQs that the idea was that you should allocate for maximum effect when it comes to mixing AP and AT hits and LVs.

For example, going by the strict letter of the rules, if a formation of 3 LVs in front of 6 infantry were hit by 3 AT and 3 AP hits, the defender could do this...
1) Assign AP hits first.  The LVs are in front - assign all AP hits to LVs.
2) Assign AT hits.  LVs are the only valid targets, so all AT hits also go on the LVs.

Instead of low-save infantry and 6 potential kills, the defender channeled all the hits onto higher-save LVs and capped damages at 3 kills.

==

There is, as you point out, no parallel FAQ for special effects.  However, going from the style and intent of the FAQ which banned the above practice, the proposal is that special effects should be allocated to valid targets whenever possible in the same way that AP and AT hits are allocated to valid targets whenever possible.
Author:  frogbear [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarification - Disrupt and Disposable
So I am lost,

Can, via the rules as they stand, the player allocate, disrupt, disrupt, disrupt, normal, normal, disrupt - in that order?
Author:  Dave [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarification - Disrupt and Disposable
Given MV's numbers the arrangement of the units in the target formation will matter. However, so long as you maximize the number of disrupt hits you put on non-disposable units I think that's the general idea.

So, at most, the two non-disposable units would have 2 disrupt hits each. However, if a non-disposable unit was the furthest from the enemy, then it would only have 1 disrupt hit on it.
Author:  frogbear [ Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:50 am ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarification - Disrupt and Disposable
I think the issue was that the Fire Warriors (with disrupt *shakes head*) did about 5 disrupt hits and 1 normal (I may be wrong but lets just go with this). I had 3 disposable units and 1 normal.

Morgan at that point played a rule in my favour (being discussed now) that I could go with the following:

disrupt - disposable1
disrupt - disposable2
disrupt - disposable3
Normal hit - non-disposable lacky
disrupt - disposable1
disrupt - disposable2

So I am still unclear. Does a player need to allocate all the disposable seperate and in one go apart from the normal hit, or is the above a legal play?
Author:  dptdexys [ Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:39 am ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarification - Disrupt and Disposable
Following the intentions of the rules and the FAQs you should attempt to place a disrupt hit on the non- disposable unit.

You can allocate them in any order you like but you should attempt to maximise the disrupt (or any special) hits on units they will effect.

your allocation of hits should be,

nearest units recieving hits first ( you can place the hits in any order disrupt,disrupt normal,disrupt etc.)

any spare hits after each unit in the target formation has recieved 1 hit each will start being placed on the nearest units again until you run out of hits to be placed.

so for your formation of 3 disposable and 1 non-disposable units,

disrupt -to- disposable 1
disrupt -to- disposable 2
disrupt -to- disposable 3
disrupt -to- non-disposable unit*

normal  -to- disposable 1
disrupt -to- disposable 2


*It does not matter in which order the hits are placed as long as you place a disrupt hit on the unit it will effect.If you don't place a disrupt hit on the non-disposable unit you are going against the intention of the rules and the suggestions from the FAQs which is very unsporting and gamey.
Author:  frogbear [ Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarification - Disrupt and Disposable
So I take it that in tournaments, "gamey" is acceptable then....?

There are so many things like this in the rules that it is a wonder they are not all tallied and changed. Much like the Commissar in a Titan.
Author:  zombocom [ Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarification - Disrupt and Disposable
Quote: (frogbear @ Oct. 30 2009, 11:04 )

So I take it that in tournaments, "gamey" is acceptable then....?

There are so many things like this in the rules that it is a wonder they are not all tallied and changed. Much like the Commissar in a Titan.

Not really, dptdexys is a top tournament player and is saying that we should aim to be as un-gamey as possible.

The principle that special rules on hits should count wherever possible is a good one, and can equally be applied to things like "ignore cover" too.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarification - Disrupt and Disposable
There is an exception in that BP attacks are supposed to be rolled for against enemy units individually, which might result in Ignores Cover hits being applied on a unit outside of cover (perhaps even one with an armour save like a commander) when you'd prefer it to hit a unit inside of cover.
Author:  dptdexys [ Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarification - Disrupt and Disposable
Quote: (zombocom @ Oct. 30 2009, 11:07 )

Quote: (frogbear @ Oct. 30 2009, 11:04 )

So I take it that in tournaments, "gamey" is acceptable then....?

There are so many things like this in the rules that it is a wonder they are not all tallied and changed. Much like the Commissar in a Titan.

Not really, dptdexys is a top tournament player and is saying that we should aim to be as un-gamey as possible.

The principle that special rules on hits should count wherever possible is a good one, and can equally be applied to things like "ignore cover" too.

Zombocom gets what I meant.
If we all try to follow the rules as they were intended to be played a lot of the so called "gamey" and "this doesn't feel right" situations disappear.
Its also surprising how quickly players try to outdo each other with good sporting behavior when their opponents show it to them (and when sportsmanship counts to tournament scores  :p).
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