Tactical Command
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Woe be da Orkz!
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Author:  MaksimSmelchak [ Sun Apr 06, 2003 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Woe be da Orkz!
Woe be da Orkz!

It's my opinion that the Orks have been emasculated in E-A.

The lack of a Supagun choice on the Battle fotress...
The Stompa's constantly declining statistics...
Boyz reinforcements going up in price...
Ork Bommas disappearing...
The extra BM inflicted by Ork fire being removed...
Supagunz losing their "ignore cover" rule...
All of the darned "0-1" limitations...

I can understand some of the decisions like the Oddboy character replacing the Supagun choice on BattleFortresses (and other Ork vehicles), but I still feel their loss especially after some rather natty conversions.

The extras decision to get off the 100 point standard is probably a very good thing. Too many 0-1 limitations though. It puts a real hamper on making "Orkily chaotic" units.

Don't get me wrong, I'll still buy a set of the rules and more models, but I don't see the Orks being very competitive anymore. They've just been cut down too much.

Anyone disagree with me?

I welcome dissenting opinions.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Sun Apr 06, 2003 6:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Woe be da Orkz!
Well Max,

You know my "Heretical" stance; if it doesn't work for us we'll fix it to our satisfaction. Regardless of Jervis's, G/W's or the
=][='s dogma. All our Armies are different and have a certain "flavor" plus strengths and weaknesses. We don't let G/W's failure to properly statistify or support an army affect us.

"Free yourselves of Jervis's tyranny !!!" :laugh:
Author:  CyberShadow [ Sun Apr 06, 2003 11:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Woe be da Orkz!
Well, I will hijack the thread to ask a question. What happened with all the changes that crept in to the final version of EpicA? One minute it was looking OK, then there was news of it going off to the print, then when I looked again the Ork Warband had changed, the Imperial Guard Defender had dissapeared and a few other things. Anyw=one know what happened in general?

As for the Orks, I must admit that I dont see that they have been 'downsized' much really. They were always supposed to be a 'swarm' army, and I think that they still are.

The Stompas have gone downa bit, but they fall between vehicles and titans and I would be happier for them to go more towards vehicles. The extra blast marker just for shooting was powerful. I have not played with or against Orks much, but I dont have real complaints.
Author:  MaksimSmelchak [ Mon Apr 07, 2003 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Woe be da Orkz!
Well, I will hijack the thread to ask a question. What happened with all the changes that crept in to the final version of EpicA? One minute it was looking OK, then there was news of it going off to the print, then when I looked again the Ork Warband had changed, the Imperial Guard Defender had dissapeared and a few other things. Anyw=one know what happened in general?  


As far as I can tell, Jervis got the urge to "Epic-40k-a-cize" (a word related to exorcism) what worked in E-A to make it a more general system. It does streamline some game play, but it injects much of what didn't work in the previous edition of the game for us.

The Ork warband and IG milita changes are the results of playtesting (the loudest most prolific posters win as an axiom) and the IG milita army list and will come out as an expansion. I respect Jervis' efforts, but right now I'm not overly fond of the current E-A rules.

 As for the Orks, I must admit that I dont see that they have been 'downsized' much really. They were always supposed to be a 'swarm' army, and I think that they still are.

They're more of a swarm army with lesser units that cost more. Many playtesters complained that the Orks were too powerful so they kept getting the axe until Imperial forces could run over them more easily. I think that this is the result of the idea that the Imperials must be the best in the game.

The Stompas have gone down a bit, but they fall between vehicles and titans and I would be happier for them to go more towards vehicles. The extra blast marker just for shooting was powerful. I have not played with or against Orks much, but I dont have real complaints.

As an intended Ork player, I say again that the Orks have been emasculated. That can still win, but they are no longer competitive or balanced. Any decent IG or SM player should be able to defeat an Ork player the majority of the time with a flexible list. The Stompas went from being tough little rust buckets AKA 2nd Edition to flimsy cans in a shooting gallery. It now takes a large mob that must rush forward and hope enough members close assault to get results. The early Stompas had enough fireower to shoot at the enemy when they came into range.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Mon Apr 07, 2003 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Woe be da Orkz!
Max, You edited my post ?  How did that happen ?  :D   You working for Jervis ? ???   Or are you a "sleeper agent" for the =][= ?  :laugh:
Author:  dafrca [ Mon Apr 07, 2003 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Woe be da Orkz!
He did that to one of mine on another thread. I just assumed he was fixing my spelling  :D

dafrca
Author:  Legion 4 [ Mon Apr 07, 2003 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Woe be da Orkz!
Yes, I see, he's a school teacher, so I guess, he does it out of habit, making corrections on our quickly typed comments :D  ...   :laugh:
Author:  Jimbo [ Mon Apr 07, 2003 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Woe be da Orkz!
Well he didn't do it proper like.

flavor (US spelling) vs. flavour (UK spelling)

is actually spelt:

flavour

But then again that is the French influence this side of the pond.

(insert humour)

:D
Author:  MaksimSmelchak [ Mon Apr 07, 2003 10:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Woe be da Orkz!
You have discovered my weakness:

Because of my sometimes poor English (Even having a university education in it, I sometimes feel that I don't speak idiomatically), I overcompensate at times. I'm worse in some other languages.

It's a pet peeve and a nagging one at that.

I grew up with both British and American spelling standards (meticulous mother) so I'm comfrotable with both. I only correct spelling if it isn't correct by either spelling standard. Once in awhile I err though!

When I give in to the urge to edit, I try to just fix a little spelling and punctuation. Sometimes, I give in more and edit a lot! :O

Forgive me, guys! :{

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Author:  CyberShadow [ Mon Apr 07, 2003 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Woe be da Orkz!
Quote (MaksimSmelchak @ 07 2003 April,22:51)
When I give in to the urge to edit, I try to just fix a little spelling and punctuation. Sometimes, I give in more and edit a lot! :O

Forgive me, guys! :{

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

Edited by MaksimSmelchak on 07 2003 April,23:04

Oh the irony!

I asked Maksim about this awhile ago, as I wondered why he edited so many posts. He just can't stop himself. Does anyone have a problem with it?
Author:  primarch [ Tue Apr 08, 2003 1:11 am ]
Post subject:  Woe be da Orkz!
Hi!

Well, Maksim, I followed your original post on the Epic A forums and agree with most of your points, as well as those of Cybershadow. I have seen you guys (as well as other forum regulars like dafrca) post very concise valid points about what you think may need some "revision" and, at least to my, perception, you have been ignored.

I was pretty intrigued about the rules being "finalized" and have seen all the "changes" people have mentioned and can only say that it doesn't seem your "feedback" means much since Jervis does what he thinks best in the end.

Yea, yea, I know what some may think, that primarch and his 'ol gitz, grot sucking, old rules are better, crud again. As valid (and true) that may be these recent "acts" just confimrs in my view what I been preaching since the Epic A thing began:

1. Jervis may SAY he understands why epic40k failed, but he REALLY doesn't. From things he has posted on those forums he puts all the blame on marketing when thats only PART of the problem that game had.

2. His refusal to admit of analyze the GOOD points older games had and why people like them and perhaps use them.

3. His constant attempts to ignore epics past. Thus the infamous "Section 8" rules and no points for older models. If he had any chance of getting a significant number of "old hands" on board for this game, this point wont win them any friends.

4. No REAL feedback. Admittedly this one is baised by my experiences with net epic. But why ask for feedback if you are going to ignore everything that doesn't fit Jervis's "vision" for the game? I have seen Maksim and others repeat "ad-naseum" that deathstrikes are unbalanced or orks are underpowered and yet no real resolution. You can now understand why myself and many others on the net epic list never bothered to fully participate with EpicA. I suspected, that in the end, it would be Jervis's game, not the communities game. So be it.

No doubt a lot can be said on this topic one way or another, but the simpliest (and yet most telling) one was a poster on the portent forums (If I am not mistaken) who said that EpicA was Epic40k with a spread of jam on top.

I tend to agree.

Primarch
Author:  dafrca [ Tue Apr 08, 2003 2:23 am ]
Post subject:  Woe be da Orkz!
Quote (CyberShadow @ 07 2003 April,15:30)
Quote (MaksimSmelchak @ 07 2003 April,22:51)
When I give in to the urge to edit, I try to just fix a little spelling and punctuation. Sometimes, I give in more and edit a lot! :O

Forgive me, guys! :{

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

Edited by MaksimSmelchak on 07 2003 April,23:04

Oh the irony!

I asked Maksim about this awhile ago, as I wondered why he edited so many posts. He just can't stop himself. Does anyone have a problem with it?

I aint gots any problems with it.

(He should enjoy that one :-)

dafrca
Author:  dafrca [ Tue Apr 08, 2003 2:34 am ]
Post subject:  Woe be da Orkz!
Primarch,

I will admit I do not mind that Jervis has not always seen things my way. Heck I do not even mind if a game is pulled from playtest and sent to edit. We could "playtest" forever. I mean NetEpic is proof. It will always change because in one way it is always in playtest. (In one way a benefit of the method of distribution in my mind :-)

What I dislike is the way so much was changed at the last moment as if we were allowed to playtest, but in the end had very little effect. In some cases major changes to army lists. Now I do not think Jervis could make al of us happy all the time. I just was caught off guard by the move, major changes and Editorial cut off all at once.

This makes me sad. I will not hide the fact I want EpicA to be a success. How else will I ever get those great new models? I just worry that this might fail to gather up the needed critical mass.

dafrca
Author:  MaksimSmelchak [ Tue Apr 08, 2003 2:46 am ]
Post subject:  Woe be da Orkz!

Well, Maksim, I followed your original post on the Epic A forums and agree with most of your points, as well as those of Cybershadow. I have seen you guys (as well as other forum regulars like Dafrca) post very concise valid points about what you think may need some "revision" and, at least to my perception, you have been ignored. - Primarch


Epic is basically the only game other than microarmor (which I almost consider an extension of Epic) that I still collect and enjoy. I committed my self to playtesting it extensively and was out at my local shop almost every weekend playtesting the game and sending in feedback. I built an E-A Ork army and tried out many list variations including vehicle-heavy Ork lists. I must admit that I do think that for the most part, my posts were "ignored." I don't like to say that, but seeing the final rules (which really aren't final since there'll still be a little more adjusting, just nothing major or fundamental), I don't feel like my feedback was used much.

From what I can see, the most frequent posters and mostly younger blood (that is to say players with little to no experience with earlier versions of the game and has nothing to do with actual chronological age), seem to have had the most influence on the game besides Jervis' "vision." The sad part is that at least a few of those posters are adolescents with lots of time to write E-mails. It doesn't bother me that those people are adolescents, per se, but I don't like to think that someone not of the "rank and file" has meant more than us "die-hards."


4. No REAL feedback. Admittedly this one is baised by my experiences with Net Epic. But why ask for feedback if you are going to ignore everything that doesn't fit Jervis's "vision" for the game? I have seen Maksim and others repeat "ad-naseum" that Deathstrikes are unbalanced or Orks are underpowered and yet no real resolution. You can now understand why myself and many others on the Net Epic list never bothered to fully participate with EpicA. I suspected, that in the end, it would be Jervis's game, not the community's game. So be it. - Primarch


I don't regret participating, but I'm not sure my feedback was that valuable for Jervis. I made a few good suggestions that were reinvented several times (Ork AAA, Deathstrikes, Gargants, Battlefortresses, etc.) and never got more than a nod from all but a few players (mostly ones like Dafrca and Gandalf the Grey). With the current Deathstrikes, I have no desire to play an IG army except with another IG army. The Deathstrikes badly need LoS or there is no defence gainst them, not even cover. They're just free abuse on the enemy.  


No doubt a lot can be said on this topic one way or another, but the simpliest (and yet most telling) one was a poster on the Portent forums (If I am not mistaken) who said that EpicA was Epic40k with a spread of jam on top. - Primarch


I don't want to like or agree with this quote, but I must hesitantly do so. "A little bit of jam" or maybe a big dollop is about right. Epic-40k's worst aspects are resurfacing. The straw that broke my camel's back was the removal of the extra blast marker the Orks could give the enemy if they shot alot. The justification was that the Orks have too many special rules. AAaagggghhhh! And not Waaaggghhh!   :laugh:

Oh well, if I get new miniatures and some new fluff then I'll be a happy camper either way. I might even get to play this game at a tournament even in the current broken state. I wanted to bring an E-A Ork army before, but I can see that now IG is the way to go.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Author:  dafrca [ Tue Apr 08, 2003 3:23 am ]
Post subject:  Woe be da Orkz!
Quote (MaksimSmelchak @ 07 2003 April,18:46)

With the current Deathstrikes, I have no desire to play an IG army except with another IG army. The Deathstrikes badly need LoS or there is no defence gainst them, not even cover. They're just free abuse on the enemy.

If you ever make it out to Los Angeles, California let me know. I will play my Guard and you can play your Orks and we will see how they stack up without their nukes, um I mean, Deathstrikes ?:laugh:

Dafrca



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