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Large Battles and Balance?
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16066		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  GlynG [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Large Battles and Balance?
I think I’ve heard it said that the grand tournament scenario and lists are only really balanced for battles of around 2-6k and I’m curious why this is and in what way. It’s not just idle curiosity - I haven’t counted them all out, but I guestimate I could run 8 armies to maybe around 10k these days, so I’m looking to play some massive battles at some point :smile:

Is it that the costing and balance of the lists doesn’t work so well at larger points for some reason?

Or does the grand tournament scenario set-up and victory conditions not work so well for large games? – if it’s this in particular, has Chroma or anyone else written better scenario(s) that works well for large games?

Something else?
Author:  tneva82 [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Large Battles and Balance?
Quote: (GlynG @ 05 Jul. 2009, 14:53 )

I think I’ve heard it said that the grand tournament scenario and lists are only really balanced for battles of around 2-6k and I’m curious why this is and in what way. It’s not just idle curiosity - I haven’t counted them all out, but I guestimate I could run 8 armies to maybe around 10k these days, so I’m looking to play some massive battles at some point :smile:

Is it that the costing and balance of the lists doesn’t work so well at larger points for some reason?

Or does the grand tournament scenario set-up and victory conditions not work so well for large games? – if it’s this in particular, has Chroma or anyone else written better scenario(s) that works well for large games?

Something else?

Probably the objectives and setup are more of issue. Things become VERY crowded if 10k army heads toward mere 3 objectives.

Also game board is also likely going to be very critical. If you don't have vastly bigger board then for example orks are going to be VERY crowded so space marine drop attacks will have jolly good time with each hitting easily incredible amount of units(been there, done that).
Author:  Man of kent [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Large Battles and Balance?
As a side note on MASSIVE battles in worcester we've gone with two 8k armies squaring up and essentially doubled everything:
Game length:
5 Turns/6 turns if no winner yet
table size: 8ft long by 6ft wide
Army limitations: 0-1 becomes 0-2 etc...
Twice as many objectives: i.e. two blitzriegs couters etc; both of which must be held to qualify.
Larger (30cm wide) deployment zone.
It's also fun to use the grand tourney scenario but to place the objective markers in such a way that make it themed, seem to recall that we had a bridge in the middle of one game that HAD to be taken, (it had four objective counters in the form of guard turrets each 30cm apart, two on each side), Multiple smaller objective along an imperial guard trenchworks, two churches that had to be captured back from orks and the road leading off of the table on the blitzkrieg side as the Space Marines performed a landing to attempt to stem the ork tide! it was ace!
To whet your appetite i've nearly finished my hills and am hopefully acquiring some large 8x4ft pieces of styrene for in order to make fully sculpted themed boards too :-)
R>
Author:  wargame_insomniac [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Large Battles and Balance?
I have played 8000 points and thought the gamne mechanics coped ok. The main thing was having extra space to manuever- I think we played on a board that was 12-14 foot long.

Cheers

James
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Large Battles and Balance?
One of the issues I think would be a concern is Strategy Rating. In a 3K army, you've got 8-12 units. With a high SR (and initiative), you get to activate 16-25% of your army*, attempting to affect 16-25% of his before he can respond.

*Farsight excepted.

Tripling the points played doesn't change the number of units you can activate, so the opponent has more units with which to respond in kind. So the effect of a high SR is not insignificantly weakened IMO.

Morgan Vening
Author:  GR00V3R [ Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:57 am ]
Post subject:  Large Battles and Balance?
Myself and CAL001 played a 12,000pts game a few months ago, and I know he played a 16,000pts game not long after that. Both games played fine.

And this weekend (over two full days), we're playing a three- vs two-player game at 40,000pts per side. Chaos assaulting a planet held by Imperial Guard and Ultramarines, Eldar, and Titan Legion. It's going to be SICK with the wicked-awesomeness!  :))

It's a scenario game rather than a tournament game, but the scenario borrows heavily from the GT rules.

Seriously: cannot...wait. Awesome Factor = HIGH.  :))
Author:  Markconz [ Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:00 am ]
Post subject:  Large Battles and Balance?
Quote: (GR00V3R @ 06 Jul. 2009, 15:57 )

Myself and CAL001 played a 12,000pts game a few months ago, and I know he played a 16,000pts game not long after that. Both games played fine.

And this weekend (over two full days), we're playing a three- vs two-player game at 40,000pts per side. Chaos assaulting a planet held by Imperial Guard and Ultramarines, Eldar, and Titan Legion. It's going to be SICK with the wicked-awesomeness!  :))

It's a scenario game rather than a tournament game, but the scenario borrows heavily from the GT rules.

Seriously: cannot...wait. Awesome Factor = HIGH.  :))

Pics mandatory!!
Author:  GR00V3R [ Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:52 am ]
Post subject:  Large Battles and Balance?
Quote: (Markconz @ 06 Jul. 2009, 04:00 )

Pics mandatory!!

Oh yes. One of the guys, horse, is even planning on testing his mad film maker skillz by producing a time-lapse vid of the game.  :))
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Large Battles and Balance?
There are a number of dynamics that change as points increase.  I like to think of it in terms of "point density" on the table.  Since the GT scenario is focused largely on keeping and holding terrain, the amount of points of units to cover the board is a critical consideration.

In the intended points range, horde armies can be effective.  They can control a lot of area and restrict the opponent's movement.  However, past a certain point, additional units in the horde don't really provide any more benefit in that respect.  Moreover, they can actually hinder each other because they get in the way.

Conversely, elite armies have certain weaknesses in respect to area control.  As the points density increase, however, the limitations of area control reduce.

To give probably the most example, at 3000 points a Titan Legion army has a hard time keeping enough active formations on the board to take and contest objectives and that inherent weakness is part of the balance, figured into the point cost.  However, at 6000 points, that is no longer an issue.  You can have a pretty much solid battle line with titans at that level.


All that said, the point values do still work very well as guidelines in large games.  You just need to keep in mind the scenario guidelines when figuring out balance.
Author:  GR00V3R [ Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:51 am ]
Post subject:  Large Battles and Balance?
I agree with Neal. And it is for all those reasons that larger games require a larger table.

My own table at home is 9' x 6', which is very suitable for battles up to 10,000pts--above that tends to suffer the issues mentioned in Neal's post.

The 40,000pts per side battle I mentioned earlier is being played on a 4m (just over 13') x 2.5m (nearly 8') table. That's all the maneouvre warfare you can eat.  :))
Author:  Tim_the_titan [ Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:09 am ]
Post subject:  Large Battles and Balance?
14 by 8 ft ?   lol whos got the long arms to caprture the middle of the board ?
Author:  GR00V3R [ Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:04 am ]
Post subject:  Large Battles and Balance?
Yeah. I'm thinking about bringing my kid's toy garden hoe for that extra bit of reach needed...  :))
Author:  Ginger [ Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:03 am ]
Post subject:  Large Battles and Balance?
Saw a game posted some time ago where the board was 'U' shaped, the gap in the middle being assumed to be a city (or perhaps a mountain) and there was a house rule governing the length of time taken to get from one arm across the gap to the other, thus making the table very big indeed, and needing a small hall to house it.
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