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Forgeworld Warhounds GONE!!!

 Post subject: Forgeworld Warhounds GONE!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:20 pm 
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Quote: (Warmaster Nice @ 22 Jun. 2009, 07:47 )

Perfect replicas of the 40k models would always be prefereable. However public visibility and availability means that people, who are not aware of these forums and/or would prefer to trade with a tracable company, have a viable proxy option. (Not implying that any of our local "suppliers" are in any way dishonest, but as an outsider you would't know that for certain). All I'm saying is that a "Skunk works" production would always tend to be more reserved for an inner circle. Proxies that are easily available (and with regards to the Skeletons wouldn't be modified any more than what the sloppy casting in the epic Character packs results in - ie. the blade under the Skeleton rifle missing, and that sort of thing) are quite simply more likely to get out to a lot of people.

Tyranids are tricky, but the skeletons would be so close to the original that I seriously doubt anyone but the top 5% of painters on this forum would be able to paint the un-modified skeletons to look any more Necron-ish than the proxy (Now there's a chalenge for an EpiComp painting competition right there :D ). As I mentioned in the Wargames Factory Android thread people put way too much into a name without actually looking at the model itself. This can be used to your advantage (as DRM did with their Andrayada - They were painted silver and called robots, but they don't look Necronish at all. People could have used them as Eldar or Space Marine proxies just as well)
With all respect to all the great CAD work being done right now but I think people are overexaggerating the importance of details compared to what can actually be picked out by your average painter. If we take the FW grey knights as an example, I've only seen a few that were actually painted well enough to really bring out the detail on those models. The FW Leman Russ tanks looks great but they are a royal pain in the posterior to shade and highlight properly with any other technique than washes and drybrushing, making camo paint jobs that aren't simply monochrome quite challenging. It is quite interesting to note how the fashion in painting styles and techniques change as models that invites to certain techniques become popular.

Anyway, I digress  :p

The point I was trying to make was simply that Skeletons with guns would be no less Necronish than the old Chaos Androids people have been quite happy with thus far. If I am then given the choice, I'd rather see them freely avaliable to everybody rather than a select few who frequent these forums :)

Rant over   :tongue:

I agree with all this.

Furthermore it's Monday and those cute skellies still aren't on the EW webstore? What's the holdup?   :;):

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 Post subject: Forgeworld Warhounds GONE!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:23 pm 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ 21 Jun. 2009, 17:33 )

I HATE proxys too.

Ooh!

That is a very strong word. Is there a reason for all the Hate and no LOVE?

:p

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 Post subject: Forgeworld Warhounds GONE!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:31 pm 
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Furthermore it's Monday and those cute skellies still aren't on the EW webstore? What's the holdup?


First they have to fly another 2200 miles (in addition to the 4400 miles they've already flown) to arrive back in the UK.

I believe Max is eager to have his designs produced by EW, and they will make it for sale by EW as Edenite skeletons (once they have been suitably modified so as to be a distinct IP).

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 Post subject: Forgeworld Warhounds GONE!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:46 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 22 Jun. 2009, 10:31 )

Furthermore it's Monday and those cute skellies still aren't on the EW webstore? What's the holdup?


First they have to fly another 2200 miles (in addition to the 4400 miles they've already flown) to arrive back in the UK.

I believe Max is eager to have his designs produced by EW, and they will make it for sale by EW as Edenite skeletons (once they have been suitably modified so as to be a distinct IP).

Jolly good :)

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 Post subject: Forgeworld Warhounds GONE!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:47 pm 
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AH ... the IDF connection E&C  ?   :rock:  :))

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 Post subject: Forgeworld Warhounds GONE!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:48 pm 
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Quote: (GlynG @ 21 Jun. 2009, 23:04 )

Perfect replicas of the 40k models would always be prefereable. However public visibility and availability means that people, who are not aware of these forums and/or would prefer to trade with a tracable company, have a viable proxy option ... quite simply more likely to get out to a lot of people.

I'd like both to be options, and one in no way to preclude the happening of the other.

Wider proxy availability for those that want it all for the good. I don't think anyone has said they have any problem with E/W altered proxies being made, just that they personally would not be interested. I wouldn't be - having seen the wonderful originals I wouldn't be happy with anything less. I'm a perfectionist I admit it, but I'd take your 'challenge' of painting the difference to show WMN

I also think think you're being a bit harsh on CAD detail; however good a painter you are it's inspirational to have great and well detailed models! The full detail is there for those that pick it out or blanket drybrush/wash, and the very best painters should be able to cope with two-tone camoflage if they choose to go for the challenge (slow careful drybrushing with a small brush in the camo areas could be one option).

Both options are fine. I have also suggested that the modifications are done to a master model after a master model of the original has been produced so these excellent sculpts aren't destroyed in their original form.
All I'm saying is that if people didn't know modifications were made, most people probably wouldn't even notice. I am a perfectionist myself so I don't blame you for wanting as accurate models as possible, just pointing out where my priorities would be if it came down to a choice due to limited resources (Ie. Skunk Works Tyranids and official Skeletons).  :smile:



I'm afraid to derail the topic completely with a discussion on painting technique, but of course I agree with you that finely detailed models are inspirational. Part of what got me into the hobby was seing tiny versions of the Chaos Dreadnought and Androids from my Space Crusade game. :smile: Having precise replicas of the 40k model is one of Epic's major selling points and should certainly not be disregarded.

Finely detailed models are however also more difficult to paint really well simply because they are, well, more detailed. In my opinion (and of course it is only my opinion) it is easier to paint a super detailed model so it looks bad, than a simpler model because it is a lot less forgiving if the paint haven't quite got the right consistency or detail texture makes it tricky to paint a straight line in a camo pattern.

I'm not advocating a return to the horrible Mk2 Vindicator, but you don't see a lot of well done freehand like the flames on the roof of the mid 90és studio Vindicator for example (I'll see if I can scan a pic if needed). Why? Because it is terribly difficult to paint on the textured side, as seen on the FW russes (why anyone would want to paint flames on a Leman Russ is another question altogether  :p  )

My point is simply that certain types of models leans themselves to certain painting techniques. We are dealing with a smaller scale than 40k here, so the question I think it is important to bear in mind is simply if I want a hyper detailed model because it can be done, or because I think it can be painted to look good. I think there should be a sound balance between detailed and not so detailed models so we still get to show off other painting techniques than washing, dipping and drybrushing for Epic scale. What some painters of larger scale miniatures complain about is that it is not possible to paint anything interesting in Epic scale because it is to small. I think many members of this forum can prove them wrong, but I do think it is true that highly textured models usually looks best with simple basecoat/wash/drybrushing techniques. which are fairly simple techniques really.

I think people should't feel discouraged from doing complex camo patterns on their vehicles because they're afraid to clog up the fine detail with too thick layers of paint. The SG models have caught quite a bit of flak recently for not being very accurately detailed (and casting problems too). However I do find most of them quite pleasing to paint and in some circumstances I think I can paint them to look a lot better than I would be able to with a Forge World model.

Anyway, let me just stress that this is in no way aimed at the CAD designing going on right now. The work is brilliant, no doubt about it. Just saying that people who think any model below the very high bar set by these models is rubbish, might want to keep in mind what they can actually realistically pick out with a brush, and after that what the abilities of the average gamer might be, that's all :smile:
I know I cursed when I had given my FW Grey Knight Terminators an ever so gentle dusting of white primer, only to find that it had caused detail loss when I also applied a basecoat of Mithril Silver.




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 Post subject: Forgeworld Warhounds GONE!!!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:01 pm 
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As regards model detail, I personally prefer it to be as high as possible. I enjoy using all painting techniques on models, depending on what's appropriate to that area of the model... the only thing I won't do when painting a model is drybrush, as I think that invariably looks 'chalky'.

As to my personal CAD project at the moment, it's based on Malcador tanks which are about the most detailed tanks in Warhammer 40,000 scale too. My Small Walking Robot will be a breeze to make in comparison.




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 Post subject: Forgeworld Warhounds GONE!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:32 am 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 21 Jun. 2009, 22:31 )

Furthermore it's Monday and those cute skellies still aren't on the EW webstore? What's the holdup?


First they have to fly another 2200 miles (in addition to the 4400 miles they've already flown) to arrive back in the UK.

I believe Max is eager to have his designs produced by EW, and they will make it for sale by EW as Edenite skeletons (once they have been suitably modified so as to be a distinct IP).

I missed this, where are these?

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 Post subject: Forgeworld Warhounds GONE!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:42 am 
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It's nowhere in particular, yet, certainly no official announcement has been put out, but I'm positive on the chances of it happening.

'Skeletons with guns' has been needed for a while.

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 Post subject: Forgeworld Warhounds GONE!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:28 am 
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To my mind (and feel free to shoot me down), but the issue with Necrons is not so much the infantry--that problem is relatively easily solved--but rather the big toys: Monoliths, Pylons and so on.

Anyone have a solution for those?  :))


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 Post subject: Forgeworld Warhounds GONE!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:33 am 
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Anyone have a solution for those?


There's an excellent Otterware Pylon, and Jonluke has a superb Monolith (although I understand he's having trouble casting them)




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 Post subject: Forgeworld Warhounds GONE!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:18 am 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 22 Jun. 2009, 00:42 )

It's nowhere in particular, yet, certainly no official announcement has been put out, but I'm positive on the chances of it happening.

'Skeletons with guns' has been needed for a while.

Indeed ! :))   Plan B + Plan C = Plan D ... That's my assessement ... 8v) That would certainly work for the Infantry ... :vD

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 Post subject: Forgeworld Warhounds GONE!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:01 am 
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I'm not advocating a return to the horrible Mk2 Vindicator, but you don't see a lot of well done freehand like the flames on the roof of the mid 90és studio Vindicator for example (I'll see if I can scan a pic if needed). Why? Because it is terribly difficult to paint on the textured side, as seen on the FW russes (why anyone would want to paint flames on a Leman Russ is another question altogether  :p  )

Warmaster, it's not horrible. I love it  :_(
And yes, your point IS valid - those flat sides are a brilliant canvas for a good painter. Pity I don't qualify!

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 Post subject: Forgeworld Warhounds GONE!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:42 am 
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Regarding GW IP:

does anyone know how the Avatars of War models (http://arena-deathmatch.com/onlineshop/onlineshop.php) are handled? For me they look very close to the models from GW but obviously they are also generic enough not to cause IP problems. And of course they are advertised as "Dwarf Berserker Hero" or "War Priest" instead of "Dwarf Troll Slayer" or "Sigmar Priest".

That said creating a new zombie robot model that looks almost identical to some of the current Necron models should not cause any problems?





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 Post subject: Forgeworld Warhounds GONE!!!
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:42 am 
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@ warmaster
im afraid im seeing this whole proxy painting conundrum from the opposite side of the fence.

i want the most detailed models i can get exactly cause i know im a SUCK painter  :)) yes thats right i actually do realize it ( and youve all seen the pics ive posted so you know). and really having the detail there and useing "tricks" (basic dry brushing and inking) is the only way i am generally happy with the way my figs come out.

i am not trying to discourage the production of figs in 6mm that can be used as proxies in any way, i threw down my 1$ prepay on the skeletal death robots and hope they go into production. im just saying ide prefer to get the real deal, and if one of the cad guys wips somthing out or sombody casts a sculpt first i want them to know ill pay them for there efforts before ide buy cheaper mass produced proxies.

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