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Black Legion Composition Question
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Author:  Ogre44 [ Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:50 am ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Composition Question
I do not normally post army lists on forums, but army composition in EA is a little different, and as I haven't many games under my belt and not a great lot of opportunity to play I would like to start with a good all-round list for collecting/painting purposes.

This is the list I am currently looking to build and paint, I have all the models required and have gotten a couple of things converted and ready to go.

Black Legion Chaos Terminators led by the Warlord
Four stands of Terminators
Four Land Raiders
Champion upgrade
I see this unit as pounding on the enemy with the Land Raiders as they advance toward assault range, preferably focusing on heavy targets like superheavies/titans and then sweeping in for the kill in hand to hand with both the Warlord and his Champion handing out the Pain like penny candy on Halloween.

Black Legion Chaos Terminators led by a Lord
Four stands of Terminators
Demon Prince upgrads
Demonic Pact upgrade
This unit will deepstrike into enemy territory, summon demonic aid and ravage the enemy mercilessly (at least on paper)

Black Legion Retinue led by a Lord
4 Rhinos
Dreadnought
Demonic Pact upgrade
This unit's mission is taking and holding objectives after the enemy has been driven off/destroyed by the heavier components of the army

Black Legion Retinue led by a Sorcerer
Havocs
This is the unit that will be holding objectives on my side of the table

Black Legion Bike Company led by a Lord
Demonic Pact upgrade
Fast zippy guys with a good CC and the ability to summon Demons, why wouldn't I?
Not really sure on these guys, I'm thinking they'll be a flanking unit to try and set up crossfires and massive assaults

Banelord
I took the time to build it, it's gonna be in the army.
Also, I know that my only local opponent plans to regularly field a Warlord and Hot Titan on Titan action is what drew us to the Epic games in the first place :devil:

Lesser Demons
5 units
I figure that I'll be summoning these guys for the big assault so they'll be used sparingly.  I have 3 separate units that can summon so I should be able to get a unit into a good position to yank the beasties out of the Aether and point them at the enemy.  I haven't taken any marks, so all I'll be able to summon will be Demonic Beasts.

Please let me know if I'm anywhere near the mark on building a playable 3000 point army, without the chance to play  regularly everything's just stats on paper and Theoryhammer really isn't my strong-suit.
Author:  Ogre44 [ Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Composition Question
OK, if I drop the Dread I can use it's points along with the spare 15 to buy 3 more units of Demonic Beasts, giving me a grand total of 8 units.

Aside from Obliterators I didn't see much AA available to me?
Also, the last time we talked about playing we were saying we'd get a few games in sans aircraft to get a better feel for the basic concepts of the game.  But, I do think I saw some aircraft on his painting table so I may well be screwed there :sulk:
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Composition Question
In the official Black Legion army list the only AA are obliterators, plus the Swiftdeath fighters (which are generally regarded as a poor choice).

It's pretty much essential to have one with each of your Terminator formations, as they're only 10pts more than a Terminator unit and are much better, protecting your Terminators from air attack, reinforcing their low numbers, and providing a very powerful Firefight ability. Plus they're harder to kill than Terminators and so will often end up bugging your opponent as he chases a Fearless unit of Obliterators all over the place.

The retinue that will be used for holding objectives in your side of the table should probably have two obliterator units too, as that makes it an extremely unappetising prospect for enemy air assaults (Meaning your backfield will be very well protected), and again makes the formation very hard to wipe out.
Author:  Mephiston [ Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Composition Question
Well if you really sold on the dreadnoughts put them with the retinue with havocs.

I'm not sold on the terminator + land raider formation. I still think chosen are best used deep in enemy territory via teleport.

6 activations is a little low for 3000 points too. Best advice, play it and see how it goes.
Author:  hello_dave [ Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Composition Question
Pretty much agree with the comments so far, both chosen would be better off Teleporting, with an Obliterator each.

I'd also swap the Havocs for a pair of Obliterators, and place your Supreme Commander in this formation (relatively out of harms way). That should give you some reasonable AA cover, and ensure that you keep the re-rolls (at least for a little longer).
Have you thought of replacing the Retinue that is 'mopping up' after the Assault with a Forlorn Hope?

I'd also look at the marks if you plan on taking Daemons, it's nice to have a little flexibility in what you can summon (Beasts are useless vs skimmers for example), if you can squeeze a few more Daemons in (for a second wave) that might be a good idea too.
Author:  Mephiston [ Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Composition Question
Don't discard the Havoc's out of hand they are a great addition to a retinue you plan to use in as a guarding formation.

If you are playing games without air obliterators are not necessary but are still very good. Once aircraft are in common used in your games they become a must.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Composition Question
Consider splitting out those Land Raiders into a vehicle company.

Otherwise the army is dictated by the banelord. Two broad tactics.
Advance - You want the army to hit all at the same time, with options to take out enemy deathstrikes or similar tk weaponry.
Hold - It sits on the Blitz while the rest of the army cautiously go and play.
When advancing with WE putting the enemy objectives close together means you can capture them all or at least provide ff support all over the important areas.
Author:  clausewitz [ Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Composition Question
I would echo the sentiment that 6 activations is probably on the low side for 3k.

You also don't have much speed in your army, just the bikes (and rhinos, while they last).  I mention this as I found one of the best tactics against BL is to run away...
Author:  Ogre44 [ Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Composition Question
Thanks for all the input.

I've reworked a bit and managed to get the Activation count up to 7.

Black Legion Retinue with Warlord
Either Havocs or 2 units of Obliterators.
This will be the unit to hold objectives on my side of the table, and keep my Warlord out of trouble.
Not sure I'm sold on the Oblits, their special rules make them attractive.
Does the better chance to hit armor make up for the 2 shots I'd be losing by taking them over the havocs?

Black Legion Retinue with Chaos Lord
Rhinos
This unit is for taking objectives after the enemy has been driven off of them by the heavier units in the army

Black Legion Retinue with Sorcerer
Rhinos
This unit is for taking objectives after the enemy has been driven off of them by the heavier units in the army

Black Legion Terminators 5 Stands
Demon Prince Upgrade
Demonic Pact Upgrade
Teleports in and wreaks havoc

Black Legion Terminators 4 Stands with Chaos Lord
Demon Pact Upgrade
Teleports in and wreaks slightly less havoc

Black Legion Bike Company with Chaos Lord
Demon Pact
Whizzes around trying to set up crossfires and decisive assaults

Banelord
Titan Control

7 Demonic Beast stands

All in all the army comes in at 3005 points.
I'm having a hard time getting the activation count any higher.
If I trade the Banelord for a Ravager, remove the Rhinos from the Sorcerer's Retinue, and demote the Demon Prince to a Chaos Lord whilst simultaneously removing one unit of Terminators I can add in a unit of 4 Land Raiders and even out the point cost to 3000 points.
Is having a Formation of Chaos Space Marines with no rides and no upgrades worth having?
What about the Bike Company, I could do a straight swap for the 4 Land Raiders and 1 additional Demon stand and eliminate the extra 5 points, but I'd lose the Fast Response portion of my list.

Also, what's WE? (per The_Real_Chris's post)
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Composition Question
Not sure I'm sold on the Oblits, their special rules make them attractive.

Obliterators are the best unit the Black Legion army list (which is hardly short on really really good units!).



WE means War Engine.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Composition Question
Sorry War Engine (the Warlord/Banelord)
Author:  AxelFendersson [ Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Composition Question
Quote: (Ogre44 @ 05 Jun. 2009, 19:38 )

I'm having a hard time getting the activation count any higher.

To some extent that's the price you pay for taking something as huge and expensive as a Banelord. When you've got something that large in the army, it gets a lot harder to get a high activation count.
Author:  Ginger [ Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Composition Question
Have you had a look at the tournament lists used in the UK? check out the tournament championship site and the results page for each tournament, which has links to the various armies used, including a number of Black Legion armies.

Broadly speaking, if you are wedded to the Banelord (which costs as much as three other formations) you are always likely to struggle for good activations. As a broad guideline, you should aim at a minimum of eight (350 points average), which means that to keep this average others may have to be Forlorn Hope (only 125). Add Rhinos and Daemonic pact and it becomes a powerfull formation for 170 points - much better than the Marine scouts with the ability to materialise really nasty daemons prior to an assault. Make sure these are used in conjunction with the BaneLord to make the most of his points (so assault near it to get the BL support).  

Until the BL list is revised, Obliterators are totally OTT as far as I am concerned (as a long time opponent of the things :p ). They are a superb all-round unit that is hard to suppress or kill, they are fearless, can teleport and above all have three AA5+ shots; this makes them feared by all A/c except possibly THawks and Landing Craft. You should try to have at least three in separate formations, though some have had up to seven of the things.
Author:  Ogre44 [ Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Composition Question
In the Tournament lists in Ginger's link (thanks Ginger) I'm seeing no titans larger than Ferals.
Are they really that much of a detriment?
What if I just want fun games with beer drinking and laughter rather than high-pressure tourney games with tears and antacids?

WE=War Engines makes sense, WE=World Eaters like I was thinking made me wonder :O
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