Tactical Command
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Barrages: when does the -1 for cover apply?
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15596		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  McMullet [ Fri May 15, 2009 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Barrages: when does the -1 for cover apply?
The following situation occurred in a game I played a couple of weeks ago.

My Gargant shot at a Devastator formation that was partially in an area of woods. Specifically, the infantry were in the woods, thus being visible to the Gargant, whilst the Rhinos were on the other side of the wood. The double template was plenty to hit all 4 visible infantry formations and the 2 Rhinos, which were not visible.

Clearly, the infantry get the -1 for cover as they are entirely within the terrain feature. The vehicles are not within terrain, but do they get the -1 due to interposing terrain? On the one hand, there is a wood between them and the shooter; on the other, the shooter doesn't need LoS to them at all, so that would suggest that something interposing into the non-existent LoS should be irrelevant.

Alternatively, does the "one in cover, all in cover" rule apply normally to barrages? Since the barrage hits individual units, not the formation as a whole, we've always applied cover to individual units, but this may also be wrong.

At the time, I rolled with the -1 for the Rhinos because I wasn't sure; nor did it matter much. Any advice on how to deal with this in future is gratefully received. :)
Author:  Ginger [ Fri May 15, 2009 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Barrages: when does the -1 for cover apply?
I agree with Hena here.

Barrages are often misunderstood. If you read the rules carefully, you will note that you measure from firing unit(s) to a target UNIT. In doing this you must follow the usual rules for Range and LoS. "Indirect" fire may ignore the LoS constraints when determining range.

Only when you have done this do you get to place the initial template covering the target unit, and any subsequent templates touching the first one. (As a consequence, the bulk of the initial template and the entirety of other templates may end up outside the notional range/LoS of the firing weapons.)

Only at that point do you then consider "cover". In this case, the infantry are in cover and the Rhinos are behind terrain, so also in cover.

One final point that can get missed - LoS only extends 10 cm into woods and buildings. Given your description, it is conceivable that the Marines were actually beyond 10 cm in a direct line into the wood, so out of LoS.
Author:  McMullet [ Fri May 15, 2009 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Barrages: when does the -1 for cover apply?
Thanks for the replies, that makes sense. :) Good to know I played it right in the first place.

Regarding the 10cm LoS into terrain - most of the wood features we use are about 10-15cm across, so with the 5 cm disembark and adding in the 4cm of the base I doubt I was looking through more than 10cm to the first unit (though I'll keep an eye on that for future reference).
Author:  BlackLegion [ Sat May 16, 2009 1:49 am ]
Post subject:  Barrages: when does the -1 for cover apply?
5cm disembark and 4cm base? You know that on disembarking the whole base of the disembarking unit has to be within 5cm of the transporting vehicle?
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Sat May 16, 2009 6:01 am ]
Post subject:  Barrages: when does the -1 for cover apply?
Quote: (BlackLegion @ 16 May 2009, 01:49 )

5cm disembark and 4cm base? You know that on disembarking the whole base of the disembarking unit has to be within 5cm of the transporting vehicle?

Really?

1.7.5 Transport Vehicles.
...Disembarking units may be placed within 5cms of the transport vehicle...

I can see how it could be interpreted that way, but I could also see how it could be interpreted the other way. To be interpreted the way you do, "must be placed COMPLETELY within" would be a better way of writing it.

Because every other example of distance in the rules is from edge of unit to edge of unit.

In some instances, like a BattleFortress, or the Nurgle Plague Tower, it'd start to get really difficult to actually deploy 12/16 bases of infantry in that area.

Morgan Vening
Author:  BlackLegion [ Sat May 16, 2009 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Barrages: when does the -1 for cover apply?
Well you can't move a unit 5cm and then the length of the unit itself on top if it. You measure from edge to same edge of the moving unit.

Moving 5cm and then the 4cm of the units 1x4cm long-base would be an unfair advantage for you if your opponent uses the old 2cm square-bases.
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Sat May 16, 2009 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Barrages: when does the -1 for cover apply?
Quote: (BlackLegion @ 16 May 2009, 10:53 )

Well you can't move a unit 5cm and then the length of the unit itself on top if it. You measure from edge to same edge of the moving unit.

Moving 5cm and then the 4cm of the units 1x4cm long-base would be an unfair advantage for you if your opponent uses the old 2cm square-bases.

Couldn't you also argue moving from the back of unit?

Yes, it does advantage certain base sizes, but then again, there are always going to be advantages/disadvantages to certain base sizes. If your infantry is based on 40x40mm, you're going to have a more difficult time fitting them in, and if they're 20x5mm, you won't.

I'm not doubting you're possibly correct, but it does seem like a weird situation. Just seems counter-intuitive to me.

Morgan Vening
Author:  McMullet [ Sat May 16, 2009 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Barrages: when does the -1 for cover apply?
There's certainly room around a Battlefortress for the theoretical maximum of 12 infantry stands - I have them on the desk in front of me.

However, I would say that "within 5cm" simply means the distance between the units is no more than 5cm. Certainly, that how I've applied every other instance of the phrase in the rules - Scouts have to remain "within 20cm of another unit in the formation," units "within 15cm may lend support..." "You capture an objective if you have a unit within 15cm of it..." "... a -1 modifier if enemy units are within 30cm" and so on.

I take the point about this giving an advantage to 40x10 over 20x20 bases, but I think such things are inevitable when variable base sizes are allowed.
Author:  Chroma [ Sat May 16, 2009 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Barrages: when does the -1 for cover apply?
Quote: (BlackLegion @ 16 May 2009, 10:53 )

Well you can't move a unit 5cm and then the length of the unit itself on top if it. You measure from edge to same edge of the moving unit.

The thing is, disembarking isn't a "move" for the unit disembarking, it's a "place".  You don't test for dangerous terrain for disembarking units, at least I've never seen that done, as you would with a move.

By the "rules as written" a stand with a single model "within 5cm" of a transport unit is still fulfilling the transport rule.
Author:  Steve54 [ Sat May 16, 2009 7:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Barrages: when does the -1 for cover apply?
Quote: (Hena @ 15 May 2009, 17:35 )

2. Obscuring LOS for barrages depends on whether you are firing direct or indirect barrage. Direct barrage should count the units out of LOS as in cover (obviously they cannot target them as accurately). However indirect barrage doesn't require LOS so it's not a factor and thus in that case purely LOS missing doesn't count as cover.

We have always played that the out of LoS units aren't in cover unless they are actually in cover
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