Tactical Command
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Rules Clarifications - Overwatch Assault Queries
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15527		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Fri May 08, 2009 5:52 am ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarifications - Overwatch Assault Queries
An instance came up in an adjacent game that we couldn't figure out.

Player Drew teleported in 3 Terminator Squads. Player Scott had a buffed (BTS) Tactical Squad and 2 Devastator Squads on Overwatch. Drew Commander-Engaged the Tactical Squad with all the Terminators.

Scott fired all the shots into a single squad of Terminators, killing 3. The question was, is that unit forced to immediately withdraw (even though it's in base contact), or does it fight as a broken unit?

Unless I've got it all wrong. Overwatch says "A formation that is on overwatch may choose  to shoot immediately after an enemy formation completes a move or unloads troops, and before the target either shoots or assaults."

But the Assault rules have Charge Move as an internal component of Assaults (Subsection II). So if you have to shoot before the assault, when does this happen? Before the Charge move? How does Counter-Charging interact? Can I have an assaulted unit on Overwatch fire and then CounterCharge? Can I have a unit CounterCharge before a friendly Overwatch fires? Heck, can I have a friendly Overwatch near my assaulting units shoot at a CounterCharger?*

* This was mentioned in another thread that countercharging/consolidation are 'movements' and are treated as such for certain effects.

Or have I got this completely bass-ackwards, and Overwatch fires before the movement of the Engaging unit. "A formation that is on overwatch may choose to shoot immediately after an enemy formation completes a move or unloads troops, and before the target either shoots or assaults." So a unit charging from out of LOS can't be overwatched? Because the opponent cant see him before he begins?

I'm really confused.  :oo:  And getting more confused the more I think about it.

Morgan Vening
Author:  nealhunt [ Fri May 08, 2009 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarifications - Overwatch Assault Queries
What Hena said, but to expound a bit...

From the time the activation roll succeeds until the assault resolution roll, the combined formations are considered one large formation.  The attacks would not single out one of the Terminator formations, but allocate hits front to back across all 3 formations.

That might have resulted in more kills, as the hits would have been spread out over more stands rather than having some doubled up.

The BMs would be assigned to the combined formation as a whole and determining whether the attackers were broken would be based on that.

As far as after the assault, each formation would leave the combined assault with their original BMs, plus one for each casualty during the assault.  Since the BMs from fire happen after the formations are combined, it's not clear which formation they should be assigned to.  For the purposes of assigning those BMs once the formations break apart, I would assign them as...

casualty - BM on the respective formation
BM for coming under fire - on the formation that took the most casualties or, if those are equal, the one closest to the enemy when they came under fire
Author:  Assariel [ Fri May 08, 2009 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarifications - Overwatch Assault Queries
I have another question that I think fits in here:

In a game my Stealth suits teleported inside a range of 15 cm to Imperial artillery and a leman russ company was standing some 30 cm away in overwatch.

I announced an assault but since I was inside 15 cm I didnt move and we ruled that overwatch wasn't triggered.

Is that correct or was there already a mistake with the teleport?
Author:  Chroma [ Fri May 08, 2009 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarifications - Overwatch Assault Queries
Quote: (Assariel @ 08 May 2009, 14:45 )

I announced an assault but since I was inside 15 cm I didnt move and we ruled that overwatch wasn't triggered.

An Engage order includes "movement", even if it's a move of 0cm, hence it triggers overwatch.

One of the oddities of firing overwatch against an assaulting enemy is that if they are infantry and base *enemy* armoured vehicles, they get the -1 cover to hit modifier when being fired on!  I definitely think this is potential over sight in the rules... though it *could* reflect the overwatching units trying not to hit their friends.  *laugh*
Author:  Assariel [ Fri May 08, 2009 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarifications - Overwatch Assault Queries
Quote: (Chroma @ 08 May 2009, 15:49 )

An Engage order includes "movement", even if it's a move of 0cm, hence it triggers overwatch.

That was also one aspect that came up that evening. Is overwatch triggered even when the order includes movement just because it is possible to move inside the confines of the order? (I think so, considering your previous answer, but I wanted to absolutely clarify it.)

Therefore only sustained fire is not triggering overwatch and even a hold order does, as it its viable to choose the move?

We read that part of the rules text about overwatch but it wasnt that clear to us.

One sentence from the Handbook (as this is the only thing available to me right now, not being at home):
"They may not choose to shoot at a formation that does anything else in their line of fire, such as shooting without moving or regrouping."
Author:  Chroma [ Fri May 08, 2009 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarifications - Overwatch Assault Queries
Quote: (Assariel @ 08 May 2009, 14:57 )

Therefore only sustained fire is not triggering overwatch and even a hold order does, as it its viable to choose the move?

Each order has specific components that make it up, even if you don't perform them; any order with a non-optional "move" triggers overwatch, even if that move is 0cm.

With Marshal (and Hold), the move itself is optional, not the distance, so, if you don't select the move option of that order, overwatch is not triggered.

Is that more clear?
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri May 08, 2009 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarifications - Overwatch Assault Queries
Just to chime in that Chroma is correct.
Author:  nealhunt [ Fri May 08, 2009 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarifications - Overwatch Assault Queries
Quote: (Assariel @ 08 May 2009, 14:57 )

Therefore only sustained fire is not triggering overwatch and even a hold order does, as it its viable to choose the move?

We read that part of the rules text about overwatch but it wasnt that clear to us.

OW requires a ground-move component to be triggered.  As Chroma pointed out, a Hold action which chooses to fire or regroup has no move component.  There are other actions or variations on actions which would not trigger OW because there is no move component:

* Going on OW yourself.
* Firing when already on OW.
* Marshall action which chooses to fire (like Hold, no move component).

And one oddity:

* Countercharging in assault does not count for triggering OW.

That countercharge ruling from the FAQ is something of an exception to the "ground move component" concept.  There are both cases where it would make sense for a counter charge to trigger OW and cases where it could be abusive or just weird.  It keeps a person from being able to trigger their own OW formation to fire by initiating an assault against the target, for example.
Author:  Chroma [ Fri May 08, 2009 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarifications - Overwatch Assault Queries
Quote: (nealhunt @ 08 May 2009, 15:40 )

And one oddity:

* Countercharging in assault does not count for triggering OW.

One other oddity... you can "pop-up" when going on overwatch with a skimmer... and this *does* count as movement, though, normally, overwatch doesn't allow movement!  *laugh*
Author:  Assariel [ Fri May 08, 2009 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarifications - Overwatch Assault Queries
Yes, thats absolutely clear now. Thank you all!

As for the 'pop-up oddity' we also managed to wander across this one in that game and as you can imagine we had a (not heated, just trying to) discussion to resolve that whole issue.


The weird thing about epic seems to me, that all those 'issues' with the rules dont seem due to bad rules but actually due to "good" (or maybe "well meant") rules. I mean there are games out there were you just have to shake your head because of a rule or how it resolves ingame. In epic there are oddities, but they dont look as bad imo. (I like Epic...  :whistle: )
Author:  Ginger [ Sat May 09, 2009 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarifications - Overwatch Assault Queries
One of the key thisgs to remember with rules in general, and especially in the case of EPIC, is that they are usually an abstraction of reality. Assaults for example are not static in reality, but a series of small movements from cover to cover, flanking individuals or positions, attacks and retreats etc. 40K represents this as an entire game while EPIC just rolls a few dice to establish the general effect.

So Overwatch fire actually takes place as troops are moving into position, or as they start their assault. CC and FF Hits from the assault are allocated front-to-back simulating the way attackers went through the position, using heavier weapons (MW) to attack the more resistant positions or individuals - hence the 'flying MW' effect of CC weapons that are not actually applied  to targets in B-B. And so on.

The point about EPIC is that it is essentially a strategic game that uses dice to resolve the tactical situations. Often these debates are over micro-details that tend to affect the sense of the game while actually having minimal impact on the game result.
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