Tactical Command
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Upscaling epic
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15194		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Dwarf Supreme [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Upscaling epic
1) I presume there would be an increase in the points. For example, 4 Sentinels for 100 points becomes 6 for 150 or 8 for 200. If so, no thanks. Core formations will become too expensive and will limit my options for upgrades and support formations.

2) I thought E:A was purposely avoiding pre-assigned orders like SM2.

3) I'm not sure about this. One Basilisk can still be effective.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Upscaling epic
Wouldn`t be useful for Space Marines. They're all about small elite formations not whole Companies.
Author:  Dwarf Supreme [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Upscaling epic
Quote: (Hena @ 20 Mar. 2009, 13:57 )

I don't see the automatic need to upgrade points. Or then just playing with bigger point value games. Whole point in this is to think a way to make the game flow faster and allow more units into a single game.

It seems to me that having more minis for the same amount of points would slow down a game, not speed it up.
Author:  asaura [ Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Upscaling epic
Quote: (Hena @ 20 Mar. 2009, 16:53 )

2) Command Phase added. All formations are given 2 orders at the start of turn. When activating only those or Marshall can be given to them. This gives more "feel" of higher command (eg. company or regiment sized command). This would also speed up the game as both players design their turn at the same time.
3) Any formation with equal or less than 25% of original size or two units (which ever is smaller) is removed for having too insignificant effect on the overall situation.

Remind me to get you playing Modern Spearhead sometime. Platoon-sized stands. Pre-planned orders with maps. Entire companies simply getting removed due to their parent battalion failing a morale check.

And Russians. BMPs. Hinds. Chemical weapons, napalm and nukes...
Author:  Malakai [ Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Upscaling epic
I think it's an interesting idea. I really liked the size of the armies in SM2.

Right now it seems that E:A and 40K Apocalypse are played on the same scale. You know something is wrong when Epic is too small and 40K is too big.  :p
Author:  Irondeath [ Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Upscaling epic
IMO the factor deciding game length is not rules mechanics, but the physical act of deploying and moving models. There is no way around this.

The old SM2 battles took us the entire day back in the 90´s, I´m sure if we went back to fielding 3-6 battle titans per side and as many (of course unpainted) tanks and infantry as we can find it would be the same.

Really, large battles are perfectly doable using standard E:A, if you have the time.
Author:  Carrington [ Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Upscaling epic
Irondeath and Asaura's points suggests a larger issue: I think the question to think about is where in the command hierarchy do you want the player to sit.  This was, by the way, one of the innovations to Spearhead (and Command Decision, which, IIRC, preceded it by a few years) -- you need not necessarily stick with 1:1 or 1:10 figures scale, but rather, it would be interesting to make the figures represent platoons in a battalion or regiment.

In general, the miniature games that work work at a two (or at most a three)  magnitude scale: as a commander, you give orders to units one step below you and you know the disposition/location of units two 'ranks' below.  E.g. in a battalion-level miniatures game you command companies from one or two battalions and push platoons.... but the game tends to devolve into "pushing lead" when you you're pushing squads, or when your command responsibilities creep up to a regiments worth of battalions.

As such, I'd tend to think that you lose something in trying to upscale epic just by streamlining the rules -- better to think about how the game would or should differ when you push single models representing the formations we have now, and give orders to groups of formations...

Of course, this would entail deciding on the larger chain of command (and trying to find "fluffy" ways of making entities without a chain of command -- orks and 'nids -- behave in an interesting manner.
Author:  Erik M [ Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Upscaling epic
If you really want to up-scale EA, then use 40k and with cm=inch.
Instead of Apocalypse. If people can play Apocalypse they probably have enough to play EA too.
And yes, it's quite possible to make a 120" deep table. Use four 4' by 8' and displace one in two some 60cm.
Author:  asaura [ Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Upscaling epic
I've sometimes (hasn't everyone, really?) toyed with the idea of an Epic game where the stand is a platoon, just like Command Decision and Spearhead. Thing is, many of the interesting WH40K concepts, such as Space Marines or Eldar Farseers, require thinking in terms that have not been developed in those games. When your stands are platoons, you have very few Space Marine stands, and those few stands require very special rules.

CD and SH both put a heavy emphasis on Command and Control, as did SM2. The games people play nowadays are quite different in this regard: EpicA and Blitzkrieg Commander are obviously different from the 80's-90's games in this regard. The superior C&C abilities of the Space Marines or Farseers or Crisis suit teams could work in the context of the C&C rules, by allowing Space Marines to change orders almost at will or function as unrestricted super-units like the Command Units in SM2.

Fluff-related issues also spring up. Like Carrington wrote, how do you "command" a big Ork army? Guardsmen and Tau and Eldar can work, I think. Space Marines are a supporting asset in an Imperial force. The force compositions for Eldar would be interesting: how many aspect troops and how many guardians? Having believably Orks as "the opfor" would be a big issue, athough perhaps it'd be as easy as "Orks can always choose to ignore Da Plan and elect to charge the nearest enemy on sight".
Author:  asaura [ Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:13 am ]
Post subject:  Upscaling epic
Quote: (Hena @ 23 Mar. 2009, 05:35 )

Also my aim would be to increase the model count on field. Changing to use unit = platoon won't help there.

Right. Your initial ideas about using bigger formations obviously help here. 12 big formations is still just 12 formations from an activation planning viewpoint. Also, getting rid of small formations helps. It could be something like "under half strength and broken == remove from game."
Author:  asaura [ Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:17 am ]
Post subject:  Upscaling epic
Quote: (Hena @ 20 Mar. 2009, 16:53 )

2) Command Phase added. All formations are given 2 orders at the start of turn. When activating only those or Marshall can be given to them. This gives more "feel" of higher command (eg. company or regiment sized command). This would also speed up the game as both players design their turn at the same time.

I like the idea. You could even plan the activation sequence in advance, you know...

This is where the differing Command & Control abilities of the different forces come to play. Spitballing follows:

Marines get to place 3 orders.
Orks must always choose Engage and get one other choice.
Guardsmen only get to place 1½ orders per formation (every other formation gets a single order and a dummy counter).
Eldar Farseers can change a preplanned order by rolling 3+.
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