Tactical Command
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Rules Clarifications - Assualted Transports
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14947		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarifications - Assualted Transports
This was another aspect I was unfamiliar with in our latest game, and avoided by just having the Infantry disembarked.

If I had a loaded Chimera engaged by a single enemy Terminator, for example (not pinned), and wanted to disembark them, would the first need to immediately be placed in base contact? (The second obviously couldn't due to the 2 model pin rule)

The rules for attacker disembarking during an Engage action are fairly clear. Not so much for the defender. Does the 'deploy within 5cm' of the 1.7.5 Transport Rules and 'must move towards the enemy if moving' of 1.12.4 Counter Charges Rules, combine to force automatic base contact?

The reason I ask, beyond the obvious difference in FF and CC, is that it's in essence a free kill by the Terminator if it rolls the double 3+ (normal hit on the no save Inf, macro on the tank).

Morgan Vening
Author:  Mephiston [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarifications - Assualted Transports
From the transport rule

"Units may embark or disembark as part of a counter-charge move (see
1.12.4), unless the transport vehicle carrying them is already in base contact with two enemy units – in which
case they must stay on board (they are trapped inside!)."

So units inside are considered to be counter-charging. As you don't have to counter charge into base to base, just towards the nearest enemy I would say you disembark normally (within 5cms of the vehicle), but must be towards the assaulting formation not away from it.
Author:  Ginger [ Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarifications - Assualted Transports
Meph, I do not think that you are forced to disembark towards the nearest enemy, but you must countercharge towards the nearest enemy if you choose to make a countercharge. Consequently, you can choose whether the troops inside the transport want to move into B-B or not.

However in this example, as the Terminator is already in B-B, it will get two attacks and the second (MW) hit will be allocated to one of the disembarked troops (assuming the first one killed the transport) even if it is not in B-B with the Terminator. So in that sense, it does not make much difference to the outcome of the assault.
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:13 am ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarifications - Assualted Transports
Quote: (Ginger @ 24 Feb. 2009, 22:54 )

However in this example, as the Terminator is already in B-B, it will get two attacks and the second (MW) hit will be allocated to one of the disembarked troops (assuming the first one killed the transport) even if it is not in B-B with the Terminator. So in that sense, it does not make much difference to the outcome of the assault.

Which is a 66% chance. Which is better than the alternative. If it's 4 Terms on 4 Loaded Chimera, that should be 1.33 less casualties on the receiving end, and approximately .66 extra hits on the dishing out end (Against Termies, that equates to about a 17% chance of a kill).

Those aren't insignificant numbers IMO. Of course, my opponent hates this kind of statistical analysis.

Morgan Vening
Author:  dptdexys [ Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:14 am ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarifications - Assualted Transports
I'm afraid the infantry stand would have to go into base to base contact with the terminator.

As you would be using the counter charge rule to move the infantry stand it has to go towards the nearest available enemy model.

With this being the terminator and with it not having lost it's zone of control until it is contacted by 2 models the infantry stand would be in it's zone of control as it dismounts the chimera.

The other infantry stand could dismount and move towards the next available enemy model and hopefully avoid having to go into base to base (once you enter an enemy zone of control during an engage action you have to continue into base to base if you have enough movement).


The reason I ask, beyond the obvious difference in FF and CC, is that it's in essence a free kill by the Terminator if it rolls the double 3+ (normal hit on the no save Inf, macro on the tank).


You could take the normal hit on the chimera with it's 5+ save and put the MW hit on the infantry stand which has no save (with both being in base to base contact they are both classed as the nearest target for the 1st hit to be allocated to the unit of your choice)
Author:  Ginger [ Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:37 am ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarifications - Assualted Transports
Dptdexys, I have been caught out on this in the past as well  :laugh:

1.7.3 Zones Of Control (2nd para)
Units may not enter an enemy zone of control while they move, unless they are undertaking an engage action and use their charge move to get into base contact with the nearest enemy unit whose zone of control they have entered. Once a unit has been contacted by an engaging enemy unit, it loses its own zone of control for the rest of that engage action (including the ensuing assault). This will allow other units to move round it. Units are never allowed to cross directly over an enemy unit, even if it has lost its zone of control. So the termie's ZoC disappears when it bumps into the Chimera. But you are correct on the disembarking counter charge in 1.12.4 - thanks for the pointer  :;): .

Morgan, if there are 4x Termies attacking, the far superior tactic would be to put two termies in contact with each of two Chimeras, locking 4x stands of troops inside and having a 1/3 chance of killing both the Chimera and the troops inside by MW!
Author:  frogbear [ Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:29 am ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarifications - Assualted Transports
Quote: (Ginger @ 25 Feb. 2009, 00:37 )

Morgan, if there are 4x Termies attacking, the far superior tactic would be to put two termies in contact with each of two Chimeras, locking 4x stands of troops inside and having a 1/3 chance of killing both the Chimera and the troops inside by MW!

Morgan is so worried about my teleporting termies it makes me LOL !   :vD

I love this idea! Definately going to keep it in mind.
Author:  frogbear [ Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:31 am ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarifications - Assualted Transports
Quote: (Morgan Vening @ 24 Feb. 2009, 23:13 )

Which is a 66% chance. Which is better than the alternative. If it's 4 Terms on 4 Loaded Chimera, that should be 1.33 less casualties on the receiving end, and approximately .66 extra hits on the dishing out end (Against Termies, that equates to about a 17% chance of a kill).

Those aren't insignificant numbers IMO. Of course, my opponent hates this kind of statistical analysis.

Morgan Vening

Can't we just play the game without such numbers?

Yes it might matter, but we have Blood Bowl for the stats.

Let's just play the game. We have't even played with the starship rules yet!!   :no:
Author:  daemonkin [ Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarifications - Assualted Transports
Why not just avoid the situation and always disembark at the end of a move? I always disembark and stay in btb with transport for the -1 to hit from enemy.  :whistle:

D.
Author:  Chroma [ Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarifications - Assualted Transports
Quote: (daemonkin @ 25 Feb. 2009, 12:20 )

Why not just avoid the situation and always disembark at the end of a move? I always disembark and stay in btb with transport for the -1 to hit from enemy.  :whistle:

Cuz, if you're facing barrages, you've not given the enemy *three* targets instead of one... but that's about it.
Author:  Hojyn [ Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarifications - Assualted Transports
Quote: (Chroma @ 25 Feb. 2009, 12:35 )

Quote: (daemonkin @ 25 Feb. 2009, 12:20 )

Why not just avoid the situation and always disembark at the end of a move? I always disembark and stay in btb with transport for the -1 to hit from enemy.  :whistle:

Cuz, if you're facing barrages, you've not given the enemy *three* targets instead of one... but that's about it.

Also, if you plan to Advance or Engage next turn it's a good idea to stay inside, otherwise you won't be able to embark AND disembark.
Author:  daemonkin [ Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarifications - Assualted Transports
Quote: (Hojyn @ 25 Feb. 2009, 12:39 )

Also, if you plan to Advance or Engage next turn it's a good idea to stay inside, otherwise you won't be able to embark AND disembark.

:shutup:  Oops I think we have been playing it wrong all these years - embarking, engaging and disembarking. Now it seems there is a reason for transported troops to stay inside vehicles.

D.
Author:  Ginger [ Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarifications - Assualted Transports
A tactic that many others employ as well.  :smile:

However, there are occasions where you might want to stay in the vehicles, for example where the troops have little or no armour. By keeping the troops on-board they cannot be targetted by AP fire, and artillery barrages are generally less effective. (4x AT4+ rather than up to an additional 8x AP4+ assuming sustained fire at troops in cover). But you are relying on the vehicles save and if it is destroyed, the troops inside are likely to be toast as well.

Alternatively you might want to make and extended assault in the following turn (a favourite of Marine Tacticals where they can be reasonably certain of winning the initiative). Instead of having to move and 'camp-out' within 30cms of troops that are likely to object, by staying in their Rhinos Tacticals can assault targets up to 50 cms away (30cm move + 5cm disembark and 15cm FF). This greatly increases the area they can influence and the number of potential enemy formations that can be hit. Try adding some support (eg Devastators also in Rhinos) and lurk behind terrain to avoid unwanted attention and see what happens. With Eldar this can be a particularly devastating tactic but like everything else it does require good timing (and good luck).
Author:  Ginger [ Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarifications - Assualted Transports
Quote: (daemonkin @ 25 Feb. 2009, 12:41 )

Quote: (Hojyn @ 25 Feb. 2009, 12:39 )

Also, if you plan to Advance or Engage next turn it's a good idea to stay inside, otherwise you won't be able to embark AND disembark.

:shutup:  Oops I think we have been playing it wrong all these years - embarking, engaging and disembarking. Now it seems there is a reason for transported troops to stay inside vehicles.

D.

Other got in first :blush:
Just have a quick re-read of 1.7.5, on transport, and you will notice that you can either embark or disembark per move (not both). So to embark and later disembark the infantry you have to either double or march
Author:  daemonkin [ Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Rules Clarifications - Assualted Transports
Gotcha so only half wrong then. Engaging in turn 2 involves having to stay embarked at the end of move on turn 1.

D.
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