| Tactical Command http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/ |
|
| Skimmer, movement over obstacles and assault http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14866 |
Page 1 of 4 |
| Author: | Ginger [ Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Skimmer, movement over obstacles and assault |
So clarification needed Paraphrasing section 2.1.13, a Skimmer that "pops-up" at the start of it's action may ignore dangerous or impassable terrain as it moves, and only "pops-down" at the end of it's action. So it may make several moves that pass over or indeed end over such terrain. However, what happens where a Skimmer "pops-up" and performs an assult where the assault move ends over dangerous terrain. Does it need to take a test imediately, or can it make a post assault move away from the terrain before needing to test? |
|
| Author: | Chroma [ Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Skimmer, movement over obstacles and assault |
Quote: (Ginger @ 14 Feb. 2009, 13:53 ) Paraphrasing section 2.1.13, a Skimmer that "pops-up" at the start of it's action may ignore dangerous or impassable terrain as it moves, and only "pops-down" at the end of it's action. So it may make several moves that pass over or indeed end over such terrain. Actually, you seem to be confusing different parts of the skimmer rule that have nothing to do with each other and don't interact at all. All skimmers: "may ignore dangerous or impassable terrain as they move. They may not land on impassable terrain, and if they land in dangerous terrain they must take a dangerous terrain test. Skimmers may also move over other friendly units as they move, but may not land on them. Enemy units and zones of control affect skimmers normally. There is no declaration of "popping up" needed at all, they may always move this way; they are always "skimming". "Popping up" is used to change the Line of Sight/Fire from the skimmer unit and imposes limits on embarking and disembarking. The third part of skimmers, is that they can always use FF in assaults and, that to, has nothing to do with popping-up. So, a skimmer that ends a charge move or counter-charge move in dangerous terrain immediately makes a dangerous terrain test, regardless of "popped-up" or not. |
|
| Author: | Mephiston [ Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Skimmer, movement over obstacles and assault |
The question is can a skimmer end its assault move effectively hovering over impassable terrain (buildings)? Ginger considers that the 'move' only ends at the end of the formations activation, so in an assault skimmers can move, be placed over difficult/impassable terrain, complete the assault then consolidate and land in normal terrain. |
|
| Author: | Chroma [ Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Skimmer, movement over obstacles and assault |
Quote: (Mephiston @ 14 Feb. 2009, 16:34 ) Ginger considers that the 'move' only ends at the end of the formations activation, A "move" ends immediately when the model stops moving: that's when overwatch fire is triggered and when skimmers "land". The "popping up" portion of the skimmers special rule has *NOTHING* to do with the "move over terrain" portion of the special rule. You must remember that "flavour text" does not equal "rules", even if it makes sense in a "real world" sense. |
|
| Author: | Ginger [ Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Skimmer, movement over obstacles and assault |
Ok, here is the relevant section in it's entirety, including the 2008 errata revision (my emphasis added)2.1.13 Skimmers Some units are noted as being skimmers. These units are equipped with devices that allow them to hover a short distance above the ground, so that they can fly over terrain that would slow other units down. Note that skimmers do not follow any of the rules for aircraft in section 4.0. Skimmers may ignore dangerous or impassable terrain as they move. They may not land on impassable terrain, and if they land in dangerous terrain they must take a dangerous terrain test. Skimmers may also move over other friendly units as they move, but may not land on them. Enemy units and zones of control affect skimmers normally. And from the 2008 errata 2.1.13: Replace the 3rd paragraph with the following: “A skimmer may declare that it is popping up at the start of any action that it takes, including when the skimmer goes into overwatch. A skimmer may not pop up as part of a sustained fire action or a marshal action, but may pop-up when it goes onto overwatch. Popping up counts as movement for the purposes of triggering firing by enemy units on overwatch. A skimmer that has popped up, ‘pops down’ at the conclusion of the action. Skimmers on overwatch do not pop down until after they make their overwatch attack. Skimmers with a transport capacity may not embark or disembark units while they are popped up, and if they are destroyed while they are popped up then any units on board will be destroyed with no save. . . . . ." Chroma, I think we need to phrase the question in two parts; 1) Where a skimmer makes multiple moves, can it ignore terrain throughout its movement, only needing to test at the beginning of the first move and at the end of the last move as appropriate?
Note however, the action would be split into several moves, each of which could trigger OW fire if in range and LoS. 2) If you are performing an engage action, when does the action start and end?
If that is the case, IMHO it seems that skimmers are allowed to be 'pop-up' at the start of the Charge movement, only 'popping-down' after the consolidation / withrawal move was complete. Thus they could carry out an assault while over dangerous / impassable terrain (provided they have enough movement to clear impassable terrain at the end of the move). Consequently it would seem that they only need to take a dangerous terrain test if they land in dangerous terrain at the end of the Consolidation / Withdrawal move, and not after the initial Charge move into assault range (which is 'popped-up'). Does that make more sense? (I might add that this question is from my recollections of the SG thread Hena is referring to) |
|
| Author: | Chroma [ Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Skimmer, movement over obstacles and assault |
Again, "popping up" has *NOTHING* to do with the "move over terrain" ability of a skimmer, they are two, separate, functions of being a skimmer. You don't declare "popped up" to move over intervening terrain, a skimmer just moves normally over it... if it wants a better line of sight/fire during that movement, then it does need to declare "popped up".  If the skimmer wishes to move *in* the terrain, it may choose to do so, as the "ignore terrain" is a 'may' effect, but, again, that has nothing to do with "popped up", think of it more as NOE flight, if anything. From the 2008 Faq: Q: Does a skimmer that starts a move in a piece of dangerous terrain but then moves out and ends its move in terrain that isn’t dangerous have to take a dangerous terrain test? A: Yes it does. A skimmer making multiple moves during an action is, in essence, "hopping" from place to place, but lands close to the ground after each move and suffers such effects. Yes, it makes "real world" sense, that a popped-up skimmer is "way up" in the air avoiding such things, and it's fine as a house rule, but the actual rules don't support that; there is no "hovering", as plausible as it might be.  I'd certainly be inclined to include that in any NetERC changes we might make, but it would need to be playtested and examined for potential trouble. |
|
| Author: | dptdexys [ Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Skimmer, movement over obstacles and assault |
Quote: (Ginger @ 14 Feb. 2009, 13:53 ) Paraphrasing section 2.1.13, a Skimmer that "pops-up" at the start of it's action may ignore dangerous or impassable terrain as it moves, and only "pops-down" at the end of it's action. So it may make several moves that pass over or indeed end over such terrain. Gavin if you re-check the rules pop-up only affects "Line of Sight" there is no mention of popping up ignoring terrain test's. A skimmer may declare that it is popping up at the start of any action that it takes, including sustained fire actions and when the skimmer goes onto overwatch. Popping up counts as movement for the purposes of triggering enemy onoverwatch. A skimmer that has popped up is assumed to be flying high enough that intervening terrain does not block the line of fire between the skimmer and any enemy units, and vice versa. A skimmer that has popped up, ‘pops down’ at the conclusion of the action. |
|
| Author: | stompzilla [ Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Skimmer, movement over obstacles and assault |
I agree wholeheartedly with Chroma TBH. The rules seem to support this interpretation best and from a games balance perspective it is IMO the best one. Ginger's interpretation makes skimmers frikking ridiculously good. They already have plenty of advantages (which are reflected in the points cost - A Falcon costs as much as a Leman Russ) and are pretty fair when used as Chroma describes (Which is the way i've been doing it too). |
|
| Author: | dptdexys [ Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Skimmer, movement over obstacles and assault |
Quote: (Ginger @ 14 Feb. 2009, 13:53 ) However, what happens where a Skimmer "pops-up" and performs an assault where the assault move ends over dangerous terrain. Does it need to take a test imediately, or can it make a post assault move away from the terrain before needing to test? Yes the Skimmer would have to take a dangerous terrain test as it would have finished a move over/in difficult terrain and the consolidation move is a separate move according to the rules. 1.12.9 Winner Consolidates Any units on the winning side may then move 5cm. This is a free bonus move designed to allow attacking units to occupy territory they have captured. |
|
| Author: | Ginger [ Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Skimmer, movement over obstacles and assault |
Guys, what you are saying is that effectively a skimmer moves exactly the same as a ground unit - potentially it has to test at the start / end of every move, which is the complete opposite of what was in the original SG thread or what is written in both the original rules and the 2008 errata (and incidently completely nerfs the concept of skimmer). While I understand the association of 'popping-up' with shooting, this is achieved by climbing to an altitude above the terrain, or moving clear of it. The wording says that you 'pop-up' or climb to altitude at the start of the action and stay at altitude ('popped-up') until the end of the action, not the end of each move. (dptdexys @ 14 Feb. 2009, 22:26 ) Gavin if you re-check the rules pop-up only affects "Line of Sight" there is no mention of popping up ignoring terrain test's. Umm Dave, in paragraph #2 it says "Skimmers may ignore dangerous or impassable terrain as they move." and the next paragraph says that "A skimmer may declare that it is popping up at the start of any action that it takes". This may indeed be shooting etc, but also includes engagments. So actually it effectively does say you ignore terrain tests for the duration that the skimmer is 'popped up' :- until the end of the action when it 'pops-down' again |
|
| Author: | zombocom [ Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Skimmer, movement over obstacles and assault |
Quote: (Ginger @ 15 Feb. 2009, 00:39 ) Guys, what you are saying is that effectively a skimmer moves exactly the same as a ground unit - potentially it has to test at the start / end of every move, which is the complete opposite of what was in the original SG thread or what is written in both the original rules and the 2008 errata (and incidently completely nerfs the concept of skimmer). No, ground units have to check if they enter dangerous terrain at any point of the move, whereas skimmers only check at the end. That's a big difference. Popping up is entirely seperate from the skimmer movement rules. |
|
| Author: | Ginger [ Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Skimmer, movement over obstacles and assault |
So, what exactly is 'popping-up' then if it is not climbing above the terrain? |
|
| Author: | AxelFendersson [ Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Skimmer, movement over obstacles and assault |
The third paragraph (or third, fourth and fifth with the 2008 errata applied) of 2.1.13 describes the circumstances under which a skimmer can pop up, what happens when a skimmer is popped up, and when it pops down again. At no point in that paragraph (or those paragraphs) does it say anything about the unit's movement or about dangerous terrain. Neither does it say anywhere else that popping up in any way affects the rules for the unit's movement. From this we can infer that popping up does not, in fact, affect skimmer movement, and that it therefore follows the same rules when popped up as it does when not popped up. When not popped up, a skimmer has to take a dangerous terrain test if it starts or ends its move (not action) in dangerous terrain. Thus a popped up skimmer must also have to take a dangerous terrain test if it starts or ends its move in dangerous terrain. There is a strong case to be made that this rule is unrealistic, since, as you say, popping up represents the unit rising above the terrain. But what a rule is intended to represent is not always a reliable indicator of how it works. |
|
| Author: | zombocom [ Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Skimmer, movement over obstacles and assault |
Quote: (Ginger @ 15 Feb. 2009, 01:04 ) So, what exactly is 'popping-up' then if it is not climbing above the terrain? Skimmers are always above the terrain, at least high enough to not touch the ground, say a metre or two up. Popping up represents going 10s of metres up to get a better line of sight. Wither way they're above the ground high enough to avoid the rubble etc, but only when popped up are they high enough to get LOS improvements. In either case, the skimmer "lands" after every move for the purposes of dangerous terrain. I understand your point that this makes little sense for a popped-up skimmer, but it makes little sense for a popped-down one either! |
|
| Page 1 of 4 | All times are UTC [ DST ] |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|