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Could this be an Imperial Dropship?

 Post subject: Could this be an Imperial Dropship?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 11:56 am 
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So let's see:
1) We are to blame for not doing the GW's marketing for them.
2) We are to blame for not buying the insane amount of minis required to make the GW quarterly blokes satisfied.

Right.  :-:  :oo

And I don't think ANYONE in here is laying the blame on Jervis.

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 Post subject: Could this be an Imperial Dropship?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:40 pm 
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Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 30 2004 Nov.,10:56)
So let's see:
1) We are to blame for not doing the GW's marketing for them.
2) We are to blame for not buying the insane amount of minis required to make the GW quarterly blokes satisfied.

Right. ?:-: ?:oo

And I don't think ANYONE in here is laying the blame on Jervis.

taking your points one at a time.

1) GW market their products better than any other game company around. They reach a bigger proportion of their intended market, they present the product beautifully and they make their product available through widespread outlet stores and mail order in many parts of the world and have been around longer than most other companies. Most other games company produce a set of rules and a limited number of figures to support it and do little else.
If the game won't fly then its because its no damn good or has very limited appeal to make it worth while financially (remember GW arent and should not be a charitable organisation.). Historical gamers will explain this to you easily . They NEVER have complete ranges . Producers come and go and they just get on with the problem and their hobbies with proxies.
So in short You cant do their marketing for them but you can help spread the popularity of a product you want to survive,. historical gamers do it all the time. Thats why warhammer historical with hardly any marketing at all by GW standards is absolutely flying along in the historical circles. the gamers like it and are spreading the word.
    The problem is its a hobby . You get back what you put in. If you expect a games company to spoon feed you then take up fishing cos its not gonna happen
2) Most definitely. I was a production manger for matchbox toys. Moulds are phenomenally expensive. If the demands disappear or are insufficient you go broke. For plastics the demand has to be in the thousands. The bigger the range you try to maintain or produce quickly the quicker you go broke. if WE THE PUBLIC dont buy enough of the product It is not economical and they the investors will pull their money out. I repeat GW is not the department of social security. If you dont buy enough product to make them profits then they will pull out . Its simple economics. Oh and yes the amounts are large NOT just to make a profit but to break even. Matchbox toys one of the most succesful toy companies in the UK went broke because they overreached and tried to be both a toy company and a hobby producer. the plastic kit side of the business which they entered into when modellers convinced them the sales would be worthwhile eventually drove them down the toilet.

and if you really think no one has blamed Jervis then read this thread again. I have no wish to name posters but Jervis has was blamed in in the very first post.

It's too easy to blame GW or Jervis or the cleaner. What it comes down to in the end is that if with even GW's marketing policies the product doesnt fly then it is just not popular enough to be produced. Painful but there you go. We dont buy enough to make it viable. Its just possible that if the range had been declared as marines, Imperials and orks then anything else you convert or proxy it might have been viable. ie concentrated production effort. That however is very debatable.

Bob DeAngelis


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 Post subject: Could this be an Imperial Dropship?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:54 pm 
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GW markets WH40K and Warhammer "better than any other game company around". Not Epic or any other Specialist game around. If they want new gamers to get to Epic they need to give it some serious exposure. And in this case "serious" is NOT a couple of articles in WD which the fanboys forgot as soon as the new 40k came out.


Historical gamers will explain this to you easily . They NEVER have complete ranges . Producers come and go and they just get on with the problem and their hobbies with proxies.


In spite of them being so active in working as a non-paid marketing personnel unlike lazy ol' me?  ???

As for 2), I'm inclined to agree with Primarch when he said that GW expects the Epic to sell as well as 40k WITH LESS SUPPORT. When it doesn't they pull the plug.


If you expect a games company to spoon feed you then take up fishing cos its not gonna happen


I hate fish.

I have 20k+ of IG, Orks and Marines. Even though I am apprentice Primarch first class guess how much more I'm going to buy. At present I am collecting Eldar and probably will fulfill my sacred duty to GW as pointed out previously and buy more minis when they come out.

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 Post subject: Could this be an Imperial Dropship?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:04 pm 
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Bob, this is all fine and good but you're forgetting two realities here:

A) simply buying enough to make GW reach break-even is not going to cut it. GW top management will have a look at the figures and ask "so why are we employing X people to support games which hardly make us any money when we could employ those same people for the cash cows which earn us millions of $$$?". We simply cannot compete with the GW marketing machine, and nothing less would be needed to make the specialist games operation worth it in the investors' eyes. I personally think this whole specialist thing was done more as a personal favor to Jervis (maybe with an attendistic outlook, something like "well let's see how it goes, worst case we won't lose too much") than anything else.

B) supporting the games by buying on the primary market (i.e. from GW/FW) is horrendously expensive. Maybe it's just me, but I currently have an extremely limited financial availability. And $45 for a SM landing craft is just crazy, when with the same amount (or a few dollars more) I can buy armies on Ebay. Compare the price of the old AT-era box with 6 plastic warlords in it with the $40 current metal one. Even taking inflation into account, methinks the increase is just a tad too steep.
I will support the game by making the occasional purchase from the online store, but anything systematic is out of the question.


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 Post subject: Could this be an Imperial Dropship?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:18 pm 
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"A tad". That's an understatement.  :)  Seen what a Reaver costs these days?

That is, in effect,  what I meant. The "veterans" already have complete army, in most cases several. BIG armies. If GW really wanted to make money they'd need to get in some NEW people. Without exposure _in the mainstream publication_ that's impossible.

Summa summarum: I am NOT going to feel quilty for not doing the job of GW marketing dept. for them since obviously they aren't even trying.

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 Post subject: Could this be an Imperial Dropship?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:37 pm 
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Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 30 2004 Nov.,13:18)
That is, in effect,  what I meant. The "veterans" already have complete army, in most cases several. BIG armies. If GW really wanted to make money they'd need to get in some NEW people. Without exposure _in the mainstream publication_ that's impossible.

Yes, this is the problem. Word of mouth cannot compete at GW levels, especially since the models are not available in the shops, thus cutting off impulse buyers. To reach the level of earnings GW aims at would require significant marketing efforts, which we can't reach.

This being the situation, Epic (or BFG or Warmaster or...) players will always be incredibly few when compared to the main GW games. Every one of us would need to spend thousands of dollars per year to even make a blip on GW's radar screen. I simply don't have that amount of money and frankly, if I had it, I wouldn't sink it in E:A just so GW can keep supporting the game. Hell, at these expenditure levels we could craft our own game, including minis.


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 Post subject: Could this be an Imperial Dropship?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:37 pm 
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Quote (Magnus @ 30 2004 Nov.,12:04)
Bob, this is all fine and good but you're forgetting two realities here:

Nope , I'm not. they are believe it or not exactly the points I'm making. Epic has by its sales proved it is a limited market product. It is the public who expect GW to support it and they certainly are not going to do that for such a limited appeal product. Remember the list members here are a very tiny proportion of gamers and even if each of us bought huge amounts we would not make the product viable. For games to generate a profit in a fully supported industry require major sales.
     The only way that a product like this can survive is in the way that companies like GZG operate . Almost one man bands . Although he has produced a background, The products are marketed as purely generic and usable in multiple backgrounds. The ranges he produces are extremely limited and sustainable. Expecting a full back up and professional marketing drive for what is purely a minority appeal gaming niche is totally naive. I believe to achieve what SG have in a financially driven atmosphere is quite remarkable.
     As to product cost this is a lamenatable fact in our ever increasingly expensive world. 25 years ago I paid 15 to 20 p for a 25mm historical infantry figure. Today for a decent figure I would have to pay nearer a pound. I would also receive a figure whose quality would have left me speechless 25 years ago. Quality does not come cheap. The bigger the company the higher the costs. Yes you can get cheaper product but from a one man band who sets his target at a market of maybe a thousand customers maximum and who markets his product by word of mouth or attending wargames exhibitions.    

As a final note I should add that I merely collect paint and convert the epic figures, I use some of the 40k background BUT I game using dirtside II rules from GZG. Although the only other GW game I purchase and play is BFG and I have no personal interest in GW I do believe that they have been a major contributor in keeping the gaming industry alive and thriving. they have also considerably raised the limits on what represents an acceptablke modelling standard both for figures and terrain. indeed I first learned about acrylic paints and drybrushing techniques from an 11 year old painting genius in a GW shop while visiting the UK some 15 years ago.

Bob DeAngelis


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 Post subject: Could this be an Imperial Dropship?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:48 pm 
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Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 30 2004 Nov.,12:18)
"If GW really wanted to make money they'd need to get in some NEW people. Without exposure _in the mainstream publication_ that's impossible.

warhammer historical rule book is now probably the 2nd most popular set worldwide. it achieved this by word of mouth among the histroical gaming community. They liked them, played them and encouraged their friends to do the same. In terms of popularity, DSII is probably more popular than Epic and DSII is a purely word of mouth product. Both are limited appeal. GW would be crazy to invest further in a product that doesnt fly after 3 attempts. Its first and second appearance certainly got the coverage you require.

Bob DeAngelis


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 Post subject: Could this be an Imperial Dropship?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:25 pm 
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Quote (chubbybob @ 30 2004 Nov.,13:48)
GW would be crazy to invest further in a product that doesnt fly after 3 attempts. Its first and second appearance certainly got the coverage you require.

Hmmm. I'm certainly not an expert at GW sales figures, but as far as I know, during the SM2/TL era Epic was the third GW product in terms of revenues and was far from being a failure. The decadence of Epic was due to two main factors, neither of which had anything to do with the SM2 sales figures:

A) The old policy GW once instated "we will always support WFB and WH40K plus a third product which we will rotate every year". This led to Epic being discontinued the first time. Needless to say, this is not going to do your product any good.
B) E40K failure. When it came the time for Epic to be re-released, it was under the form of E40K. I don't think I need to retell the sad tale here, as everyone knows it. E40K never went anywhere close to its previous incarnation, and Epic as a game line sunk.


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 Post subject: Could this be an Imperial Dropship?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:44 pm 
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Quote (chubbybob @ 30 2004 Nov.,12:48)
Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 30 2004 Nov.,12:18)
"If GW really wanted to make money they'd need to get in some NEW people. Without exposure _in the mainstream publication_ that's impossible.

warhammer historical rule book is now probably the 2nd most popular set worldwide. it achieved this by word of mouth among the histroical gaming community. They liked them, played them and encouraged their friends to do the same. In terms of popularity, DSII is probably more popular than Epic and DSII is a purely word of mouth product. Both are limited appeal. GW would be crazy to invest further in a product that doesnt fly after 3 attempts. Its first and second appearance certainly got the coverage you require.

Bob DeAngelis

Fourth, actually. And that is after the botched E40k. And the second edition _did_ sell well. The mass exodus came with E40k.

Whatever. I'm still not going to feel quilty.

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 Post subject: Could this be an Imperial Dropship?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:52 pm 
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Today for a decent figure I would have to pay nearer a pound. I would also receive a figure whose quality would have left me speechless 25 years ago.


That's certainly why a large part of the current EA line is directly recycled from previous editions (Titans, for example), carrying a huge price premium ? A while back, I could get a Reaver for FF 75 (that's 11.5 Euros). Now, the exact same Reaver (not a new one with quality making me speechless) costs 25 Euros. The Chaos and Tyranid lines for EA will be the exact same models as before (to cut costs), and the management will probably wonder why they don't sell as well as the new SM line for 40K.

By feat of the (absent) marketing, coupled with the downright hostility of most GW employees (try organizing a game of EA, BFG or Bloodbowl in your local GW store), EA (and other Specialist games) is mostly/only appealing to the Old Guard (I started playing 12-13 years ago). So trying to resell stuff that nearly every one of us owns in large amounts already with a huge price increase is definitely not happening.

Saying it's the player's fault that they don't buy enough models is a logical fallacy : it's GW's responsability to build the market for its games. GW is not a charity, but neither are the players. I don't see why I should buy a 25 Euros Titan that I already have got just so they can recast the Eldar Titans (which I also own).

Do you think WHFB and WH40K would be such huge sales successes if all they did was recycle the old moulds over and over ?

As for 2), I'm inclined to agree with Primarch when he said that GW expects the Epic to sell as well as 40k WITH LESS SUPPORT. When it doesn't they pull the plug.


Agreed. If GW feels that EA has to be as profitable as WH40K but without providing the same opportunity to both games, then there is little players can do. I buy lots of EA stuff (around 150-200 Euros each month between GW and FW), but I can't make as much for GW than what kids are spending at my local GW store...


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 Post subject: Could this be an Imperial Dropship?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:47 pm 
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Hi!

Second edition epic had sales figures in the US between 7-10% of GW (according to retailer information pamphlets back then in 1996-1997 prior to epic 40k's release). Compared to a total 5% for ALL fanatic games. Thats pretty darn good.

Every company has standards for what they consider profitable. What maybe good for a small company is losing money for a big one.

In GW terms, if it doesnt sell like warhammer 40k, it gets killed.

Simple as that.

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 Post subject: Could this be an Imperial Dropship?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:02 pm 
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Quote (primarch @ 30 2004 Nov.,15:47)
Every company has standards for what they consider profitable. What maybe good for a small company is losing money for a big one.

In GW terms, if it doesnt sell like warhammer 40k, it gets killed.

This makes sense. What doesn't make sense is GW not sublicensing, like Hasbro did with the ASL line.


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 Post subject: Could this be an Imperial Dropship?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:13 pm 
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Or even making Fanatic its own, seperate company, which happens to share the Citadel plant, in a similar fashion to what they have done with Black Library and Forge World.

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 Post subject: Could this be an Imperial Dropship?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:52 pm 
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OH that would be great!!! I'd totally love a Fanatic company!

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