Tactical Command
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Two questions
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14701		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Chroma [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Two questions
Quote: (Hena @ 27 Jan. 2009, 19:27 )

1. Can Commander pull in three formations through Wraithgate? Assume that there is two Guardian Warhosts and Autarch led Aspect warhost in portal. Can Autarch activate them all through commander and come through the portal since technically they are all one formation during the assault?

No, they cannot be all brought through a Wraithgate together as they cannot meet this condition:

Commanders can order up to three formations of troops to follow
them when they make an assault, as long as all the formations
have at least one unit within 5cm of a unit from the commander’s
formation.

There is no measuring "off board".
Author:  Moscovian [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Two questions
1. I would say the RAW allows this, although such a maneuver might warrant a die pinging off a forehead if it happened in a tournament.

EDIT: "There is no measuring "off board"." Hmm, I hadn't thought of that.  Nevermind!

2. I would say the units inside don't count toward the barging anymore than units trapped in a barging maneuver would count toward the assault.
Author:  dptdexys [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Two questions
Quote: (Hena @ 27 Jan. 2009, 19:27 )

1. Can Commander pull in three formations through Wraithgate? Assume that there is two Guardian Warhosts and Autarch led Aspect warhost in portal. Can Autarch activate them all through commander and come through the portal since technically they are all one formation during the assault?
transports.

I'd like to know if my decisions have been bad or not :smile:.

No,this was cleared up a few years ago by Jervis and I thought it was in the FAQ.
Units off board cannot use their abilities,so commander cannot be used to drag other formations through the gate.
Author:  Chroma [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Two questions
Quote: (Hena @ 27 Jan. 2009, 19:40 )

Quote: (Chroma @ 27 Jan. 2009, 21:33 )

There is no measuring "off board".

Good point. I knew it must be wrong somehow (gut feeling), but couldn't figure out how :smile:.

It's no more possible than having a Marine Commander in a Thunderhawk draw along two other fully-laden Thunderhawks...
Author:  dptdexys [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Two questions
Quote: (Hena @ 27 Jan. 2009, 19:27 )

2. Barge and transports. If there is transports with units inside, do the units inside count for Barging? So if 3DC enemy (Warhound) engages into transports carrying units (like 3 Rhinos with Tacticals) do the Tactical units prevent more than 2 Rhinos being barged?

I'd have to incline that they don't. Mainly as they don't count as three units. So you can't pile 6 units into b-t-b with those transports.

No,the 2 units inside don't count as this would prevent any unit from assaulting the rhino at all.As you stated the opponent wouldn't be allowed to get 6 units in BtB with th rhino,also normal (non WE) unit that attempted to assault the rhino wouldn't be allowed as they would have gone BtB with 3 units.
Author:  Dave [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Two questions
Quote: (Hena @ 27 Jan. 2009, 14:27 )

2. Barge and transports. If there is transports with units inside, do the units inside count for Barging? So if 3DC enemy (Warhound) engages into transports carrying units (like 3 Rhinos with Tacticals) do the Tactical units prevent more than 2 Rhinos being barged?

I'd have to incline that they don't. Mainly as they don't count as three units. So you can't pile 6 units into b-t-b with those transports.

I'd like to know if my decisions have been bad or not :smile:.

I'd say the units in transports don't count towards the barging maximum because they're in the transport. In fact, I believe they are trapped within their transport as the Rhino counts as being in count with 3 enemy units.
Author:  Moscovian [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Two questions
Quote: (Hena @ 27 Jan. 2009, 14:38 )

Quote: (Moscovian @ 27 Jan. 2009, 21:34 )

2. I would say the units inside don't count toward the barging anymore than units trapped in a barging maneuver would count toward the assault.

A sec here. I don't understand the bolded bit. They certainly would be included in number of units in resolution counting.

Poor wording on my part.  I meant 'participating', which they couldn't.
Author:  Lord Inquisitor [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Two questions
Quote: (Hena @ 27 Jan. 2009, 14:27 )

1. Can Commander pull in three formations through Wraithgate? Assume that there is two Guardian Warhosts and Autarch led Aspect warhost in portal. Can Autarch activate them all through commander and come through the portal since technically they are all one formation during the assault?

I think we can safely say "no" to this one.

2. Barge and transports. If there is transports with units inside, do the units inside count for Barging? So if 3DC enemy (Warhound) engages into transports carrying units (like 3 Rhinos with Tacticals) do the Tactical units prevent more than 2 Rhinos being barged?
Heh, good one. While there is clearly one unit on the board (the rhino) the units inside do count for certain things like whether the formation is broken, etc.

I think the most sensible thing is to assume that the rhino simply counts as one unit.
Author:  Irondeath [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Two questions
Quote: (Lord Inquisitor @ 27 Jan. 2009, 22:28 )

2. Barge and transports. If there is transports with units inside, do the units inside count for Barging? So if 3DC enemy (Warhound) engages into transports carrying units (like 3 Rhinos with Tacticals) do the Tactical units prevent more than 2 Rhinos being barged?

Heh, good one. While there is clearly one unit on the board (the rhino) the units inside do count for certain things like whether the formation is broken, etc.

I think the most sensible thing is to assume that the rhino simply counts as one unit.
Would it?

Wouldn´t this lead to odd situations when said Warhound barges 6 transports and the occupants the decide to disembark with their countercharge? And would then be unable to CC the Warhound?

I´d argue that the transported units do count for barging purposes to reduce messiness.
Author:  Ginger [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Two questions
Here are the relevant sections highlighted
3.3.1 Charge Moves
When a war engine charges it is allowed to ‘barge’ any non-war engine units belonging to the target formation out of the way and carry on with its charge move. Move the war engine as far as desired, and then place any units that were barged out of the way as close as you can to their starting point, while still touching the base of the war engine that so rudely pushed them aside. The maximum number of units a war engine can barge aside in this manner is two per point of its starting damage capacity. Note that war engines may not barge other war engines out of the way.

The rule that no more than two units may move into base contact with an enemy unit when they charge does not apply to war engines. Instead a war engine may be charged by up to two enemy units per point of its’ starting damage capacity (ie, a Baneblade with a DC of 3 could be contacted by up to six enemy units).

And from 1.7.5 on transport
Units may embark or disembark as part of a counter-charge move (see 1.12.4), unless the transport vehicle carrying them is already in base contact with two enemy units – in which case they must stay on board (they are trapped inside!).

Units being transported may not shoot unless the transport vehicle’s datasheet specifically says otherwise. Transported units are counted towards the number of units in the formation for all rules purposes (ie, when working out the number of units involved in an assault or if a formation is broken by Blast markers, etc) See 2.2.6 if a transport unit is destroyed by a macro-weapon.
IMO there is a distinction between the number of units being barged and the number in B-B contact. 1.7.5 is clear that the transported troops count for all purposes (including barging), but the occupants only get an opportunity to disembark and countercharge after the enemy's charge (including barging) is ended.

In the example, the Warhound can barge 6 units (ie 2x Rhinos containing 4x marines) and may still continue movement, but must stop when it contacts another unit. As the Warhound is only touching two Rhinos, it can continue to move into contact with the third Rhino (which cannot be barged).

However, at that point each Rhino is in contact with a DC3 enemy, locking the Marines inside to await a grisly fate in the assault resolution.

Good tactic if you can pull it off :vD , though unlikely given the marines have a better save than their transport.
Author:  nealhunt [ Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Two questions
1.  A more direct point than "no measuring when off board" is that special abilities of units that are off board are not usable.  Commander is a special ability, so it doesn't operate.  The lone exception is the SC re-roll when applied directly to the SC's formation.

2.  No, the units inside don't count for barging or pinning.  All sections of the rules that deal with transports in base contact (1.7, 1.12 and 3.3) are written in terms that exclude mounted troops from being considered in base contact with the enemy.  Mounted troops counting as part of the formation as described in 1.7.5 doesn't contradict that.

Mounted units do clearly count as being in the formation for the total unit count.
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