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Aircraft Sniping in E:A
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Author:  Tactica [ Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Aircraft Sniping in E:A
I posed the question of legality of 'aircraft sniping' to a closed group participating in an online campaign where GLane also participates (the E:A experimental rules champ). This was a talking point either NH or TRC brought up in the Tau thread sometime ago and at that time, the consensus was - its a problem in the main rules.

However, when I brought up the legality of Aircraft sniping in this closed group,  CodeRonin (also a member here) responded as follows and I thought it was a good response worthy of some consideration if not debate.


Rob,

I am learning aircraft, so I was wondering how they
justify sniping. What I read is:

4.2.2 "Aircraft carrying out a ground attack action
may attack an enemy ground formation."

The key word is "formation" and not "unit".

4.2.2 "Aircraft are assumed to be flying high enough
in the air to ignore terrain that might block the line
of sight when they shoot at targets, and the crossfire
rule does not apply to aircraft attacks. This aside,
resolve the attack using the normal shooting rules."

The key is the last sentence. Normal shooting rules do
not allow you to snipe units (unless you have Sniper,
of course).

4.2.1 "Aircraft are assumed to be travelling high
enough above the ground to fly over terrain, zones of
control, and other units."

I could not find the general rule that a unit may not
land on top of a unit, even if it may wove through it,
but there is a skimmer rule that says it:

2.1.13 "Skimmers may also move over other friendly
units as they move, but may not land on them."

So, unless you are leaving sufficient space around the
leader, they cannot even fit the stand within your
formation.

Let's look at hit allocation:

1.9.6 "Hits are allocated 'from the front to the back'
of a formation."

1.9.2 "... with the front and back being determined by
the location of the target formation." This last part
is about suppression, which goes from back to front,
but the same rules for determining which is the
formation's back and which is its front applies to
normal shooting.

So, even if you left space and he plopped the aircraft
in the middle of your formation, the back of the
formation is determined by the unit which is farthest
from the shooter. Then hits are allocated from the
opposite end, not the closest unit to the firer.

Also, if your opponent is doing that, invoke the
official hit allocation rules (not the new
experimental rules, which waffle and say you can
always use the old method anyway) and he only gets one
crack at you.

[CodeRonin] "The Rules Lawyer"


Looking forward to any thoughts...

Cheers,

Rob
Author:  code_ronin [ Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Aircraft Sniping in E:A
Again, my comment was centered around what rules I didn't know about, as I am learning aircraft operations and have never played with them (although Shawn the Ork definitely wants to give me a lesson in them :devil: ).

What I can see of the rules is that:

a. You target a formation, just like any other shooting unit.

b. Where the firer is in relation to the target determines which part of the target is the "front" and which is the "back".

c. Even with the experimental hit allocation rules, casualties are taken from the front to the back.

d. Even with the experimental hit allocation rules, you can always specify that hits be allocated one by one. If the one hit allocated to the AA unit is saved, the unit cannot be removed as a casualty, even if they are the frontmost unit, as you are specifying which hits must be saved by which units. (I would recommend this "tactic" against an aircraft sniper abuser.)

Does anyone know of a rule that makes an exception to the stated rule that says aircraft use all of the normal shooting rules (save for the exceptions listed)?

Not that it matters to this discussion, but does anyone know if an aircraft can end its movement on top of another unit (enemy or friendly)?

Thanks,

Dale
Author:  jfrazell [ Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Aircraft Sniping in E:A
Does anyone know of a rule that makes an exception to the stated rule that says aircraft use all of the normal shooting rules (save for the exceptions listed)?

the flight rules specifically states you use normal rules:

4.2.2 Aircraft Attacks
After aircraft have made their approach move they are
allowed to attack. Aircraft carrying out a ground attack
action may attack an enemy ground formation. Aircraft
carrying out an interception mission may attack an enemy
aircraft formation. Aircraft are assumed to be flying high
enough in the air to ignore any terrain that might block
the line of sight when they shoot at any targets, and the
crossfire rule does not apply to aircraft attacks. This aside,
resolve the attack using the normal shooting rules.
Author:  nealhunt [ Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Aircraft Sniping in E:A
I think there is confusion caused by calling the tactic "sniping" versus the actual sniper special ability.

Aircraft "sniping" is no different than if a ground formation maneuvered so that a specific enemy unit is the closest one and has to be allocated hits first.  Aircraft are just much better at maneuvering into position.

a. You target a formation, just like any other shooting unit.


Yep.

b. Where the firer is in relation to the target determines which part of the target is the "front" and which is the "back".

It's interpretted as closest to farthest and is not necessarily linear.  You don't necessarily start at one edge and allocate as if a plane (geometric, not flying) were passing over the formation.

You could, for example, fire at a formation which was in a rough arc in front of you.  It might be that a unit on the right side was the closest, then a unit over on the other side was next, ending up with a sort of piebald pattern of where the hits were allocated.

Another example would be a company in a trenchline.  The first hit would be at the closest unit, which would be directly in front of the firing formation.  Allocation would essentially radiate outward from that closest unit, blowing a hole in the middle of the line.

c. Even with the experimental hit allocation rules, casualties are taken from the front to the back.

Yep.

d. Even with the experimental hit allocation rules, you can always specify that hits be allocated one by one. If the one hit allocated to the AA unit is saved, the unit cannot be removed as a casualty, even if they are the frontmost unit, as you are specifying which hits must be saved by which units. (I would recommend this "tactic" against an aircraft sniper abuser.)

Yep.  It's still just one allocated hit until you have covered every eligible target and are then allowed to begin doubling up.

In relation to the AX10 that started the discussion in question you are talking about only MW and TK hits, so usually no save for that one hit.

Does anyone know of a rule that makes an exception to the stated rule that says aircraft use all of the normal shooting rules (save for the exceptions listed)?

Nope.  As noted, it uses the exact same mechanic as the normal shooting.  Aircraft are just better at manipulating it.

Not that it matters to this discussion, but does anyone know if an aircraft can end its movement on top of another unit (enemy or friendly)?

Never thought about it.  Never seen it come up in a game.
Author:  jfrazell [ Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Aircraft Sniping in E:A
The final issue that seemed to pop was whether an aircraft could "dive-in" and pick out a unit.  The concept was wherther you could dive in and smoke the A unit in the center.

     x     x
x    A     A  X
    x      x

Nothing I've seen reflects any ability to do that.  Indeed the rules note you follow normal shooting rules other than the specified exemptions in 4.2.
Author:  code_ronin [ Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Aircraft Sniping in E:A
Quote (nealhunt @ 03 Mar. 2006 (20:32))

I think there is confusion caused by calling the tactic "sniping" versus the actual sniper special ability.


Not from me. It seems pretty clear from email exchanges that some people think they can stop an aircraft unit over the top of an enemy leader unit and thus it becomes the closest unit and therefore the first to die. This is a wrong interpretation, on several counts.

b. Where the firer is in relation to the target determines which part of the target is the "front" and which is the "back".

It's interpretted as closest to farthest and is not necessarily linear.  You don't necessarily start at one edge and allocate as if a plane (geometric, not flying) were passing over the formation.

You're going to have to provide a rule reference on that one, I think. The rules I quoted are pretty clear on determining where the front and the back of the formation is. Hits are allocated from front-to-back. It doesn't matter if you happen to be in the middle of that formation or not.

In relation to the AX10 that started the discussion in question you are talking about only MW and TK hits, so usually no save for that one hit.

I don't think that discussion started this one (because I don't know what what you're referring to). This was just a general comment by Tactica in an email exchange with Greg Lane about the Volistad campaign.
Author:  code_ronin [ Fri Mar 03, 2006 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Aircraft Sniping in E:A
Quote (jfrazell @ 03 Mar. 2006 (20:44))

The final issue that seemed to pop was whether an aircraft could "dive-in" and pick out a unit.  The concept was wherther you could dive in and smoke the A unit in the center.

     x     x
x    A     A  X
    x      x


Assuming there is physically enough space between the two AA units to fit the aircraft, and referring to nealhunt's reply and ViktorK's email, the assumption is that because the AA unit is the closest unit to the aircraft, thus the first hit is allocated to it.

I disagree with that interpretation wholeheartedly, although in practice the result may be the same.

The rules talk about the front and the back of the formation. You measure from the firer to all enemy units in the formation targeted. The farthest unit from the firer is designated the "back"; the opposite end is the front. (If multiple units count as the farthest, the rules say that the controlling player decides which is farthest.) It does not matter if the "front" is behind the firer or not, hits are allocated there first, as long as the range and line of fire aspects are met (see 1.9.6 Allocate Hits & Make Saving Throws).

The reason I think this gets misinterpreted (i.e. the closest unit is the first to be hit) is because an aircraft in the middle of an enemy formation, facing the right direction and with only forward firing weapons (common, I guess) that is right up against the unit it wants to blast will find that the first eligible unit (in line of fire and range) from front-to-back is the unit they want to blast. The kicker is that it is possible to screw this up.

Z
X
X
V
A
X
Y

Assume the aircraft "V" is facing enemy AA unit "A". All of the "X", "Y", "Z" and "A"'s are in the same formation. V has flown down the line and is firing. Which is the farthest unit in the formation: Y or Z? Z is, therefore it is the back of the unit. Which is the front of the formation? Y is. Which is the first eligible unit to receive hits? Y. It would take three hits to allocate one on unit A. :80:

Anyone who disagrees, please provide a rules reference.  :devil:

Thanks.
Author:  jfrazell [ Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Aircraft Sniping in E:A
The rules talk about the front and the back of the formation. You measure from the firer to all enemy units in the formation targeted. The farthest unit from the firer is designated the "back"; the opposite end is the front. (If multiple units count as the farthest, the rules say that the controlling player decides which is farthest.) It does not matter if the "front" is behind the firer or not, hits are allocated there first, as long as the range and line of fire aspects are met (see 1.9.6 Allocate Hits & Make Saving Throws).


Exactly.  The interpretation that you can commence the attack while already overhead is contrary to this reading of the rules, as shown above. Although which unit is the "front" unit may change depending on the direction the aircraft is coming in from, you can't "snipe" units from overhead.
Author:  semajnollissor [ Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Aircraft Sniping in E:A
Why doesn't the aircraft's firing arc prevent it from hitting what is behind it? Isn't the situation similar to a titan-mounted weapon that can only hit some of the units in a target formation. In the case of the titan, aren't units that lie outside the firing arc immune from taking hits? I was under the impression that only units which are in range and within the firing arc can take hits. I'll admit, though, that I'm not exactly sure what the rule book says.
Author:  jfrazell [ Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Aircraft Sniping in E:A
You're firing at the formation though as you make your pass, not after the pass.
Author:  Ginger [ Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Aircraft Sniping in E:A
Guys

While I don't like this any more than you, 1.9.6 says:-

"Hits are allocated ?from the front to the back? of a
formation. Note that this is the opposite of suppression.
AP hits can only be allocated against infantry units, and AT
hits may only be allocated against armoured vehicles. Hits
must be allocated to the closest potential target first."

By putting the A/c in BtoB with a unit, doesn't that become the first to be hit, with other hits being allocated away from the A/c on those units within it's Field of Fire?

Cheers

Ginger
Author:  code_ronin [ Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Aircraft Sniping in E:A
Quote (semajnollissor @ 03 Mar. 2006 (22:15))
Why doesn't the aircraft's firing arc prevent it from hitting what is behind it? Isn't the situation similar to a titan-mounted weapon that can only hit some of the units in a target formation. In the case of the titan, aren't units that lie outside the firing arc immune from taking hits? I was under the impression that only units which are in range and within the firing arc can take hits.

Logic dictates that we should consider the front of the formation as what part we pass over first (if we pass over it) and the back being the opposite end, but the rules are very specific about how to calculate the front and back.

Because the aircraft unit "stops" and fires at a specific point, calculations of front, back, and eligible units to be allocated hits occur at that point and no other.

I agree with semajnollissor that units outside of the firing arc cannot be targeted.

And therein lies where the misinterpretation occurs, IMO. Because the closest unit gets hit if you set it up right, the rule appears to have been bastardized to "you go from the closest to the back". But it is not that way.
Author:  code_ronin [ Sat Mar 04, 2006 12:00 am ]
Post subject:  Aircraft Sniping in E:A
Quote (Ginger @ 03 Mar. 2006 (22:39))
While I don't like this any more than you, 1.9.6 says:-

"Hits are allocated ?from the front to the back? of a
formation. Note that this is the opposite of suppression.
AP hits can only be allocated against infantry units, and AT
hits may only be allocated against armoured vehicles. Hits
must be allocated to the closest potential target first."

By putting the A/c in BtoB with a unit, doesn't that become the first to be hit, with other hits being allocated away from the A/c on those units within it's Field of Fire?

The term "closest" is used to help you determine which unit in the "front" is targeted first.

..V
XXX
YYY

In the example above, all three X units are in the front. Which X is allocated to first? The one in the middle, as it is closest.

The priority is thus:

* Front to back
* Closest to farthest

Therefore "closest" is a tie-breaker, not the primary targeting criteria.

Let's face it, the general shooting rules assume:

A. A zone of control is in effect.
B. The firer is not within the target formation.
C. Fire comes from a point outside of the formation.

But, these are the general shooting rules, and all of the above assumptions are valid; with aircraft none of them are.

However, I feel that the overriding intent of the rule (I hate using that phrase, when it comes to GW rules) is that you cannot snipe specific units without the Sniper ability.

Is it possible to line up a shot so a specific unit gets hit first? Possibly. Is it easier for aircraft? Yes. Does that mean we have to roll over and make it easier for them? Hell no! ?:devil:
Author:  Ginger [ Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:18 am ]
Post subject:  Aircraft Sniping in E:A
Hi CR

While I, and I am sure many others, agree with you, the point is exactly as you put it, "closest" becomes the tie-breaker where there are several candidates. As you say, hits have to be allocated to units "within range and line of fire" - thus although we may desire to start from the edge of the formation, those that have been "flown over" become ineligible.

Also, very few races bunch up as close as the diagram suggests because of the effects of artillery barrages, (the main exception being the 'Nids) thus permitting our cheesy A/c opponent to move into the formation and set up BtoB with just one unit.

Of course you are right that the intent of 1.9.6 was written assuming the firer was outside the target formation, not within it. As I understand it, the air rules were a bit of a "bolt-on", and this is one aspect that highlights that view. Consequently, I hope that this may be one of those areas under consideration by the Rules comittee in their current review, but don't know whether it is or not.

In terms of making it harder - the only way to prevent this "illegal" sniping is to have the units close enough together to physically prevent the A/C from being put down in BtoB contact with its intended target - but even that is not completely foolproof!!

The Tau AX10 and other newer A/c can quite easily cause more than one hit, and can usually be positioned outside the formation such that the specific target can either be hit directly or suppressed by BMs (with more than one of these A/c that becomes almost a certainty) ?:down: Hence the discussions in other threads about the upwards "creep" in air power.


Cheers

Ginger
Author:  code_ronin [ Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:09 am ]
Post subject:  Aircraft Sniping in E:A
Nothing is completely foolproof, yes.

I think the best defence against aircraft - or any other - sniping (other than Sniper) is to invoke that the hit allocation and save rules be played precisely as written. In the sniper screws up, cut him or her no slack. Sure, they may get it right the next turn - or the next game - but so be it. More than likely they will only get one shot at your unit (per turn). If they have a MW, well, that is a problem too.

This plays into a discussion I had with Honda when he sucked me back into this game. It seemed to me that allowing air ops and titans would simply escalate the units you would have to have. I have since found out that titans aren't quite the monsters I imagined them to be.

Aircraft, of the other hand, as was pointed out in another thread, have one defence against it, and if that is killed early, or not present in the first place, then they will dominate the game. Whether that is realistic or not, the question is: is it fun?

If it ceases to become fun, and I don't want every game to be 1/3 points in air and as much air defence as I can muster, and my opponent refuses to give up air because his army has the killer air asset - I will simply stop playing that opponent. And if all opponents become that way, I will shelve the units until I find other opponents or the rules unscrew themselves.  :/
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