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| Rule Clarification - Sniper http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14216 |
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| Author: | Ginger [ Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Rule Clarification - Sniper |
The debate about Tyranid Lictors, has raised a couple of questions:- 1) When should 'sniper' hits be allocated relative to other 'normal' hits? - Allocate Sniper hits before normal hits (to ensure even spread) - Allocate Sniper hits afterwards, allowing multiple hits to be applied to special targets increasing the chance of killing them - The timing is at the discretion of the sniper 2) Can a player opt not to use the special ability of a weapon? In the debate there is a possibility of giving 'sniper' to a CC weapon with EA +1 which means that any extra hits that weapon causes must be allocated to the enemy unit in B-B. Where two Lictors attack a single enemy unit there is a possibility of gaining 4x hits on it, and it may be more efficient to only claim one EA as sniper, allowing the other three hits to be allocated to other eligible enemy units. But is that legitimate? |
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| Author: | dptdexys [ Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rule Clarification - Sniper |
The FAQ on sniper appears to indicate normal attacks allocated first then sniper attacks. 2.1.14 Sniper Q: The sniper rule,2.1.14,states that the player can allocate sniper hits to any unit in range and LOF. Does this mean that you can allocate sniper hits to units that have already been allocated a hit? A: Yes. To me this indicates the normal attacks go first but I believe the new assault rules will throw a spanner in the works if CC sniper is introduced.Although if the sniper attacks were first strike and normal attacks not would this solve the problem? |
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| Author: | Chroma [ Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rule Clarification - Sniper |
Quote: (dptdexys @ 14 Dec. 2008, 14:54 ) To me this indicates the normal attacks go first but I believe the new assault rules will throw a spanner in the works if CC sniper is introduced. What "spanner in the works" do you foresee with sniper in close combat with the new assault rules? The "range restricted targeting" placed by the sniper rule is not negated by the assault rules, so close combat sniper hits can still only be allocated to enemy models in base contact. |
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| Author: | dptdexys [ Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rule Clarification - Sniper |
Normal attacks would be allocated first and if no survivors the sniper attacks would be wasted. I don't think this would be a major problem as with lictors having infiltrate it shouldn't be too hard to get in BtoB with 2 units but would put the Lictors in the same situation terminators were in before the errata where MW were often wasted but they would have to bepointed for them non the less. |
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| Author: | dptdexys [ Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rule Clarification - Sniper |
Quote: (Hena @ 14 Dec. 2008, 16:46 ) Lictor would have both attacks first strike. The problem with both being 1st strike is when you read the FAQ it shows sniper is added after normal hits and could be wasted . If we play it with sniper is placed 1st then it's almost giving the lictors a FF attack as it would be possible to get in BtoB with 1 enemy unit per 2 lictors and have the other CC attack go on units further away making them a devastating clipping assault formation.  I believe if we keep the a sniper attack as1st strike it forces the lictors to try to get into BtoB with 2 units or waste the extra attack. |
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| Author: | Ginger [ Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rule Clarification - Sniper |
Quote: (dptdexys @ 14 Dec. 2008, 14:54 ) The FAQ on sniper appears to indicate normal attacks allocated first then sniper attacks. 2.1.14 Sniper Q: The sniper rule,2.1.14,states that the player can allocate sniper hits to any unit in range and LOF. Does this mean that you can allocate sniper hits to units that have already been allocated a hit? A: Yes. To me this indicates the normal attacks go first but I believe the new assault rules will throw a spanner in the works if CC sniper is introduced.Although if the sniper attacks were first strike and normal attacks not would this solve the problem? We agree that 'Sniper' is intended to negate the normal front-to-back allocation process, allowing the player to allocate hits to any enemy units in range and LoS even to those units that already have hits allocated. However the way the FAQ is worded makes this choice optional by saying that the player can do this. IMHO, this would seem to allow the player to choose to allocate 'Sniper' hits before all others. Also, what are you views on a player deciding to ignore the 'sniper' ability to allow the hits to be spread wider as 'normal' hits? |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rule Clarification - Sniper |
Like many issues, I think the problems with this is based on the fact that it's an application that was not considered when the original rule wording was drafted. Conceptually, I would look at the only other CC-range restriction in the game - MWCC. The change to the MWCC range restriction was done in part to stop this exact sort of fiddliness and what some people felt was an unfair loss of attacks. My take on it has always been that there is no CC/FF attack outside of war engines. According to the assault rules, all assault hits, regardless of origin as CC or FF, are a single pool of hits. Even if every hit came from CC, those could theoretically be allocated up to 15cm away. I'm still inclined to think of it in those terms and call the "range" on assault Sniper hits 15cm, just like every other non-WE assault attack in the game. Maybe that will end up being too powerful, but since there are currently no units in the game with CC Sniper everything is still wide open to adjustement - # of attacks, CC value, point costs, etc.. |
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| Author: | Pulsar [ Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rule Clarification - Sniper |
i've been using first strike Sniper CC attacks for a while now with the Emperor's Champion and i have found that being able to allocate them outside base to base can be very powerful against some formations like with guard, you can kill the commissar almost all of the time and without that combat res it's much harder for the guard to win. but thats with one character in one formation who is hitting on a 3+ or 4+ (depens were you put him), i don't know how good it would be if you had alot of those kind of attacks the usefulness maybe much less. |
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| Author: | zombocom [ Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rule Clarification - Sniper |
I think base contact only is essential for CC sniper, else you'll have lictors clipping one side of a formation yet killing characters 15cm away. That makes no sense at all, and is gamey. Either way, the use of sniper CC is going to require a note explaining its use in any list that uses it. |
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| Author: | Dwarf Supreme [ Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rule Clarification - Sniper |
I don't like the sniper ability for any CC attacks, but that's probably just my opinion. |
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| Author: | Ginger [ Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rule Clarification - Sniper |
Neal, I believe the problem exists currently in shooting hit allocation, but has gone unnoticed as it is very rare (AFAIK only IG infantry company with sniper upgrades and less so with Marine scouts). You can get 'normal' and 'sniper' hits that need to be allocated, and the order that these are applied can produce slightly different results. The point is that 'sniper' allows the shooter to choose where to allocate the hits, and my question is whether they can also choose when 'sniper' hits are allocated? |
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| Author: | Chroma [ Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rule Clarification - Sniper |
Quote: (zombocom @ 15 Dec. 2008, 16:58 ) Either way, the use of sniper CC is going to require a note explaining its use in any list that uses it. As a special rule, I think the sniper range restriction *should* come into play, as it trumps the "normal" rules. Additionally: 2.1.14 Sniper Some infantry units are noted as being snipers. Roll separately when attacking with a sniper unit. If they hit, the attacker can choose which enemy unit is hit from those within range and in the line of fire of the sniper unit. In addition the target suffers a -1 save modifier. You'll always have your sniper attacks as a seperate pool of hits, so I don't think they should be mixed into the "reguler" pool of hits. The "which comes first" is still an issue in normal shooting, so how have people be resolving that? Though I haven't really paid attention, I think, locally, it's usually been "normal hits" and then "sniper" hits. |
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| Author: | zombocom [ Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rule Clarification - Sniper |
Chroma: Just the fact that there has been debate over it is enough to add a note for clarity's sake note: sniper hits are applied after other hits to units in base contact with the Lictor unit. This may cause units to be hit multiple times. or note: sniper hits are applied before other assault hits, and must be applied to units in base contact with the lictor unit. Other hits are then applied as normal, beginning with the closest unit to which a sniper hit has not already been allocated. Or whatever. It's currently unclear which is correct, so I guess you need to make a choice to make it clear which way it should be done. |
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