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War Engines causing a rules ruckus!
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1359		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Raysokuk [ Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:50 am ]
Post subject:  War Engines causing a rules ruckus!
Hello!

I'm a Tau player realtivley new to the Game of Epic and completely new to this Forum, so please forgive my Ignorance.

Firstly, are there any better versions of the Tau rules than the v3 rules from Fanatic?

The Discretion over Valour rule is terrible! You just don't get engaged, by anyone or anything! I won't be using this rule at all (its way over the top), I will be using the counter charge away from the enemy though.

Tau Infantry are too good compared to thier 40K counter parts (using the general translation from 40K to Epic where IG and SM are the example).

The Crisis suits have too many guns! Crisis suits units should only have 3 Guns rather than 4 (Always Having Pulse Rifles, you choose 2 Burst cannons or 2 Fusion blasters or 1 of each. And an option to upgrade one base per formation to have 2 Missile Pods instead of Fusion Blasters (AT3+ instead of AT4+) or Burst Cannons.

*I think representing the Models will be tough (as you really have to look to see their guns) but it isn't impossible, what do you think? Either way they really need some sort of choice!

I think the Missile pods should be an upgrade (like the Skyray)
as they are so good! The Fusion Blasters should be more effective than AT4+ so I'd change them to AT3+.

The Commander unit should have the original v3 stats (as they ALL have hardwired junk aswell as the Crisis suit coolness).

Fire Warriors should only have 1 Markerlight per 2 bases AT6+ as AT5+ every base is just crazy (only 'one' guy has a Markerlight).

Pathfinders Carbines should be AP5+ instead of AP4+.

Stealthsuits on the other hand haven't got enough guns (or rather shouldn't have 1 really good one), and so should have 2 x AP 4+ instead of 1 x AP2+.

The Manta is CRAZY in v3 it can shoot its obviously Fixed Forward arc Ion Cannons backwards! Also the Burst cannons don't get enough shots: should have 2 x AA 5+, 3 x AP4+, NOT 2x AP 2+.

The points in general are a little 'off' but that is to be expected until allot more playtesting is done.

But the Krootox is worth either 5 or 10 pts, not 15 (after all its only a little extra fire power).

Any reply will be appreciated.

Cheers,

RayB
Author:  dafrca [ Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:52 am ]
Post subject:  War Engines causing a rules ruckus!
Just curious, did you post this feedback in the Tau forum as well?

dafrca
Author:  dysartes [ Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:  War Engines causing a rules ruckus!
Methinks the reason for burst cannons getting such a good to-hit roll is the number of shots they are putting out; compare and contrast to the heavy bolter or the assault cannon - both have the same or more) shots in 40k, but neither have multiple shots in Epic. It also prevents one burst cannon being able to kill two stands in Epic, compared to 3 men in 40k.

Consider it a necessary abstraction.
Author:  iblisdrax [ Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  War Engines causing a rules ruckus!
Welcome to the forum, Raysokuk!  While not a Tau player (for lack of funding :( ) I have found that there isn't an exact translation from 40k to Epic in all cases, and it would be unwise to attempt it, for playability reasons.  Of course , this would be my opinion...nothing more.

:)

my 2cents,

iblisdrax
Author:  Legion 4 [ Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:  War Engines causing a rules ruckus!
I collect Epic Tau, all are still in the bags. I thought the  rules were pretty good, but I realize they are still a WIP.  So I have been "waiting" ...  Plus I have been slowly working on my other armies, so the Tau are not a priority for me right now ... :)
Author:  Raysokuk [ Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:16 am ]
Post subject:  War Engines causing a rules ruckus!
I'll do a quick all in one,

I haven't posted these ideas anywhere else.

The reason I'd put Burst cannons as 2 shots is to bring them in line with the Crisis suits (obviously not eqivilents tho'), in between FireWarriors and Crisis suits, in V3 they're worse in firepower than Firewarriors. So its the inbetween stage and 1 shot IMO doesn't cut it. I have noticed the trend to try and keep the number of dice rolls down but I think this is one of the cases not to.

It is apparant that some units have been tweeked for playability in Epic (such as SM scouts). So I am keeping that in mind, I just thought an 'accurate' (more so at least) representation of the Tau 40K units in Epic would steer them away from the insanity of a rock solid 4 gun infantry stand and having Firewarriors as tank killers!

The Tau v3 rules are broken IMO, but not all in overpowering ways, it just needs to find a ballance between Super Infantry and small weak Tank formations.

What does 'WIP' mean?

Cheers RayB
Author:  iblisdrax [ Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:24 am ]
Post subject:  War Engines causing a rules ruckus!
"WIP" =  Work In Progress

:D

my 2cents,

iblisdrax
Author:  Raysokuk [ Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:56 am ]
Post subject:  War Engines causing a rules ruckus!
I just had another game of 'my' Tau vs IG. And I lost! :D , although that doesn't mean they're balanced it does mean they're less overwhelming.


I fought an IG army composed soley of Tanks and Baslisks with Hydras for air cover.

I took the Hunter cadre (obviously) but pointed it as 650pts with alternate stats for everything (they're not stronger they're weaker). I upgraded with 4 Devilfish and an Ethreal. I had 2 Tank formations (mainly Rail Guns) and a Tigershark. Looking back on it I should have got some Baracudas instead of one of the Tank Formations.

I got fisrt turn and moved my Hammer heads forward and hid them behind some buildings, and pretty much did the same with the rest of my army whilst being shot at by the 2 enemy formations The Baslisks and Manticores pretty much wiped out my Fire warriors leaving 1 Devilfsih and 5 stands remaining. But I was out of LOS and Range of the Lemons (tanks).

Next turn the 6 Basalisks got lucky (very lucky) blew up an entire Hammerhead formation. He then put his lemons on overwatch. I then moved forward with most of everything left (apart from the Firewarriors) getting the Baslisks in range of the Pathfinders only to get blown away by the Lemons (30D6, ahhh), *just out of curiosity
when you're shooting at infantry using tanks as cover (-1 to hit) do they loose the save if the shooting formation kills the tanks first, then shooting the infantry?

But I caused enough blastmarkers on both formations which supressed the Hydras (which were foolishly put furtherest away from my table edge :) I thne attacked the Baslisks with the Tigershark scoring 2 hits and near breaking the formation (which then shed over half of the blastmarkers).

From then on I got shot to pieces by the Lemons but quite effectivlety destroyed all baslisks with the Tigershark when they finally broke.

I then killed half the Lemons and died. I have to say I was unlucky and the IG player just couldn't stop killing things with Hydras! But it was a pleasent change to loose.


These Ideas may need some thought:

The Crisis suit variants don't work for me (it's too anoying to constantley check the models) I think a Tank hunter and a Anti personel variant should be created instead.

I think Hammer heads should be allowed to have 6 in a Formation (with a Skyray as an addition instead of a replacement) as a 4 strong tank formation just evapourates under fire (it gets broken almost imediatley).

An option to buy Pathfinders would be good (as you really run out of Markerlights when you have your infantry within 30cm of the enemy :( ). Just the same option of 4 pathfinder stands and 2 Devilfish.

The Devilfish should IMO have an AT value for thier seeker missiles (AT5+, Guided), This would give them more of a bite alongside the infantry. It just seems strange to me that they don't have them (I had considered that they would be part of the Infantries firepower but it is sold differently in the Fluff and allowing your Devilfish to suport your front line troops made me all fuzy inside .:;):

Discretion over valour: how about allowing the Tau player to counter charge out of Firefight but any units left behind (in close combat) are killed automatically, placing blastmarkers as if the units were shot dead.

Cheers,

RayB
Author:  Raysokuk [ Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:02 am ]
Post subject:  War Engines causing a rules ruckus!
Oh I can't remember what stats the Skyray has in 40K , could someone point me in the direction of a free copy.

Cheers,

RayB
Author:  primarch [ Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:03 am ]
Post subject:  War Engines causing a rules ruckus!
Hi!

Welcome to the forums, Raysokuk! :D

Primarch
Author:  dafrca [ Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:53 am ]
Post subject:  War Engines causing a rules ruckus!
Quote (Raysokuk @ 16 2004 Nov.,15:16)
I haven't posted these ideas anywhere else.

RayB,

Might I suggest in as nice a way I can... Go post your opinions in the offical list as well.

If you do not, the list might not ever meet your needs. Sort of the Vote or hold your comments kind of thought. You might find others will agree with you. But they will never have a chance if you do not post them there.

Just a thought.

dafrca
Author:  Raysokuk [ Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:25 pm ]
Post subject:  War Engines causing a rules ruckus!
True, If I do post my ideas on official site my dream can become a reality :D

But I think I'll iron out some of the wrinkles before subjecting the common folk to my Ideas.

Actually is there any way I could either upload or even post a Word doc to this Forum?

Cheers,

RayB
Author:  dafrca [ Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:20 pm ]
Post subject:  War Engines causing a rules ruckus!
I do not think this forum is set up for attachments.

Hope you do not wait to long to take your ideas over tot he official forum. I have seen where people have come on and posted great stuff too late and the list group has moved in a different direction. Strike soonest to have your ideas considered. :cool:

dafrca
Author:  CyberShadow [ Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:53 pm ]
Post subject:  War Engines causing a rules ruckus!
Hi Ray. I am afraid that this board does not support attachments, but if you email it to me then I will host it and provide a link for others to see. I would recommend that you post it here quickly, to get initial feedback, and then pop over to the official boards to share your ideas.
Author:  Raysokuk [ Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:14 am ]
Post subject:  War Engines causing a rules ruckus!
Right well here are my ideas for changes from Tau v3:

Hunter Cadre; Pathfinders no longer included.
Crisis suits; 1 less gun, choose between Fusion Blasters and Burst cannons(stats inc flamers/Drones).
Stealth suits; 2x Multiple Burst cannons AP 4+ instead of 1 AP2+.  
Fire Warriors; 1 Marker light per 2 bases AT 6+, instead of AT 5+ per base.
Devilfish; Seeker missiles AT 5+.

Support cadre 0-2 of each formation per hunter cadre (instead of 0-3 of each formation), inclusion of Pathfinders. No Broadsides (Heavy Support Cadre).
Pathfinders; Pulse carbines AP 5+ instead of AP 4+.
Hammerhead sqdrn (3+1) (+skyray, compulsive).
Kroot Kindred; Krootox 0-1 option for Kindred (half of the bases have kroot gun) instead of 0-3 kroot guns, Kroot hounds 0-1 for Kindred (half the bases in close combat have +1 attack) instead of 0-3 kroot hounds.

Heavy support Cadre 0-2 per hunter cadre (new option).
Hammer heads x 6, option to ?add? a skyray.
Manta Burst cannons x 2 AA5+ and x 3 AP4+ instead of 2 x AP2+, 6 x Ion cannons Fixed Forward instead of 3 left and 3 right.

Points: Hunter Cadre 475pts (instead of 600, but doesn?t have any pathfinders)
Pathfinders 150pts
Hammerhead sqdrn 3 + 1 skyray 250pts (instead of 300).
Kroot Kindred 170pts (instead of 200), Kroot Hound upgrade 30pts (different from v3), Krootox upgrade 30pts (different from v3), Knarloc 20pts (instead of 25pts).
Broadsides 300pts (instead of 250pts).
Hammerhead formation (6) 350pts, Skyray 75pts (instead of 112pts).

Questions: Should the Skyray have seeker missiles?????

Should there be an upgrade for Fire Warriors? (+4 bases and 2 Devilfish for 110pts)?????

Should Kroot have some form of Transport? (Battle sphere?? Knarloc heard???)

What about Piranhas and Tetras?????

Cheers,

RayB
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