Tactica, I disagree on your interpretation of the written rule. I guess we'll have to get Pixelgeek to confirm what it really means.
EDIT: I've pm'd Pixelgeek asking him to clarify.
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| ** New Update - Black Legion 3.5 available http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1357 |
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| Author: | Tactica [ Mon Aug 08, 2005 3:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | ** New Update - Black Legion 3.5 available |
Looks like PG and the gang have put out v3.5 of Black Legion. http://www.specialist-games.com/epic/Vault.asp Going to go review it now. |
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| Author: | dysartes [ Mon Aug 08, 2005 4:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | ** New Update - Black Legion 3.5 available |
Well, there's a surprise - only changes to the Decimator/Deathwheel is to impose a 0-2 limit on Black Legion Assault Companies. Helltalon squadrons have gone up by 50pts, and their bombs have lost Ignore Cover - still doesn't stop the 45cm forward flak attack, however. New method of doing daemons that I've glanced at - I'll reread it further later. Other than the AA ability, Helltalons look better now, but I still dislike the solution to the Assault Company - I still feel they should have been moved into the WE allowance. |
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| Author: | Tactica [ Mon Aug 08, 2005 4:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | ** New Update - Black Legion 3.5 available |
A BL 3.5 Comment: On page 5 of the PDF, section BL2.1, last paragraph, it says: Black Legions armies may be supported by Black Legion War Engines, Aircraft and Spacecraft. Up to a third of the points available to the army may be spent on these formations. | |
| Author: | Tactica [ Mon Aug 08, 2005 4:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | ** New Update - Black Legion 3.5 available |
Dysartes, The AMTL list went through some lengths to come up with light incinerator gun for the warhound titans, but the Tsons and BL list both have the effective incinerator gun mounted on their warhound titans. Shouldn't there be a standard? |
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| Author: | Tactica [ Mon Aug 08, 2005 4:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | ** New Update - Black Legion 3.5 available |
*OR* vs. *AND* So in reading through the BL list, I noticed things like the Banelord that have "Doom Fist" and the "Tail" that both have *OR* options to them. When I look at a unit like Flamers, they have a weapon called "Flames of Tzeentch" which have an *AND* option to them. Does this mean that when I buy a Banelord, I have to pick between which type of gun effect I want for the Doom Fist and Tail weapons at the beginning of the game, but the Flamers have two modes of fire for their gun? If so, some clarification to the bottom of the *OR* weapons data sheets would be helpful - like JG does in the Tau list - so players are clearly taking only one or the other option - and not both. If I'm incorrect, then can somebody explain the difference between the *OR* and the *AND* for me? |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | ** New Update - Black Legion 3.5 available |
On its face, AND means you get to do both at the same time and OR means you have to choose one. In most cases, the weapon lines are a ranged shot and an assault shot of some kind. Since it's impossible for a unit to use both a ranged and an assault attack at the same time, there is no functional difference betwen AND and OR. You simply use whichever is appropriate at the time. OTOH, some of them (Basilisks and Eldar Power Fist) will have 2 options that are either ranged or assault attacks. In that case, if it says OR you have to pick which mode to use at the time of the attack. Any weapon kit choices are explained in the Notes section like Ork Gargants. Otherwise, if it's listed, you get it. |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:20 pm ] | ||
| Post subject: | ** New Update - Black Legion 3.5 available | ||
Not that I'm Dysartes, but as long as they are different weapons, they can have different stats. The Hellmouth on the Feral titan is going to have a very different role than the Inferno Gun and the Ferals are paying a 50 point premium for better weaponry. I don't have a problem with them being different. As far as the TSons list, the stats it has are just the ones that happened to be in the AMTL list at the time I drafted the list. I'm waiting until the AMTL and BL lists settle down before I decide what direction to take the Suns of Damnation Warhounds. I may pick one of them or I may decide to go with a third set of stats or I may use an existing stat line because it's been playtested and just "Tzeentch-ify" the name. |
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| Author: | Tactica [ Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | ** New Update - Black Legion 3.5 available |
NH, Thanks for heads up on and/or above. Just to be clear on the additional 50 points you mention for the feral... For its 50 points, it has three weapon systems not two, right? It's version of the gatling system is Death Storm and is equally good against AP as well as AT shots. I actually thing this makes it a more versatile piece. In place of a 45cm slow firing MW plasma blast gun (basically a single shot) it instead receives a Hellmouth which has proven to be really strong on a fast moving titan in the AMTL list - 3BP blast that ignores cover and in this case is furthermore a Macro weapon! That's pretty sick. Especially if you have two of them in a formation! This thing is way better than any single shot plasma blast gun even though you only have 30cm range - so what, you can move 70 then fire 30... 105cm is nothing to be disappointed with when you have ignores cover + macroweapon blast! In addition, it receives a third weapon system that the traditional warhound doesn't get, it has a Battlehead which gives it +2 extra attacks - small arms. Now I did notice that the FF value continued to be decrimented by one in v3.5 by comparison to the Imperial warhound. However the Battlehead gives it back 2 more attacks in FF giving it the possibility to actually do more damage than the regular warhound and about the same statistical damage as the warhound if both are rolling typically. I'm not sure 50 points is enough for all the upticks compared to the imperial version warhound, but not trying to argue that point either. I need to playtest the new list before that kind of talk happens. (and hopefully the new list is balanced enought that this doesn't happen!) So back to the original point, should the AMTL warhound be forced to go to a light flamer template version of what currently is a 30cm ignore cover 3bp weapon... when chaos has taken the same gun on their titans, but adds macro weapon, extra attacks, and an up-ticked gattling gun for +50 points? Anyway, something for the powers that be to think about. I just found the comparison interesting. |
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| Author: | QuintAan [ Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | ** New Update - Black Legion 3.5 available |
Tactica, I believe that the line: Black Legions armies may be supported by Black Legion War Engines, Aircraft and Spacecraft. Up to a third of the points available to the army may be spent on these formations. | |
| Author: | Tactica [ Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | ** New Update - Black Legion 3.5 available |
QuinAan, That was exactly my point... The chaos WE's are as nasty as warhound titans, but actually circumvent the 1/3rd restriction as they are not named "titans". There was a lot of talk of making the BL warengines part of the 1/3rd restriction in aircraft and titans. It looks to be clearly stated that all Black Legion war engines (not just titans) are now restricted in that 1/3rd. I applaud that decision if the decimator and death wheel are not going to be revised down in power. It looks like that's what PG went with. I'm OK with that. The 0-2 limitation would be to keep you from taking as many single activation formations of 1 decimator as you could at 1/3rd of your 5000 point army. Gaining a huge advantage on your opponent with lots of activations of WE. |
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| Author: | QuintAan [ Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | ** New Update - Black Legion 3.5 available |
Tactica, I disagree on your interpretation of the written rule. I guess we'll have to get Pixelgeek to confirm what it really means. EDIT: I've pm'd Pixelgeek asking him to clarify. |
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| Author: | dysartes [ Tue Aug 09, 2005 1:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | ** New Update - Black Legion 3.5 available |
My money is on them *not* being within the limit, and PG justifying it by saying you can only get 2 formations..... |
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| Author: | dafrca [ Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:10 pm ] | ||
| Post subject: | ** New Update - Black Legion 3.5 available | ||
When you said "PMed him" I hope you ment email because at this point I do not think he is checking in here at all. Some people made it clear he was not welcome and he took the hint.  dafrca |
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| Author: | QuintAan [ Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | ** New Update - Black Legion 3.5 available |
Sent email, thanks. |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | ** New Update - Black Legion 3.5 available |
Assault companies: I am fairly certain that the 0-2 is the only restriction intended. They will not be part of the 1/3 restriction for titans and air. This is roughly parallel to IG SHT companies which are WEs but not in the restricted support. Note, I'm not making the case that's good. I'm just stating what I believe the intent is. Warhounds/Ferals: Whether the change to a flamer template from 3BP is a downgrade is highly debatable. In fact, I'd say it's pretty even. You lose a bit of range (23cm long template v 30cm range), but you gain coverage area in what is, to my mind, a better pattern. Aren't both supposed to have Ignore Cover? Overall comparison on Warhound v Feral - same toughness, same assault, one equivalent weapon (VMB v Death Storm) and one better weapon for the Feral (having MW). That seems pretty close to a 50 point change to me and so far I haven't found it to be unbalanced at 300 points. |
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