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Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1341		 Page 5 of 6
Author:  Legion 4 [ Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
That is something to look at with all Armies and rule updates ... player style and "bias" ... It's easy to fall into that mind set ...
:;):
Author:  CorwinB [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
The main problem with the SM list is that it would be very possible to discard anywhere from 25% to 50% of all the entries in the list and not affect its global efficacity, since some formations/upgrades are nearly never used...

On top of my head :
- Dreadnoughts really scream for their own formation. It's supported by the fluff (including a pretty good example of a Dreadnought-only fight between Orks and SMs), is consistent with large-scale battles using units in a different way than skirmishes, and would make them a pretty nice unit with a very specific flavor (thanks to their decent mix of assault power, resiliency, and walker ability.
- Vindicators could really use at the very least a bump in speed
- Hunters should be an option for Predators and Land Raiders formations
Author:  nealhunt [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
The main problem with the SM list is that it would be very possible to discard anywhere from 25% to 50% of all the entries in the list and not affect its global efficacity, since some formations/upgrades are nearly never used...


Like what?  The only formations I don't see used are Vindicators or Tornado Speeders.

====

This isn't to pick on CorwinB, but typically, it seems that these kinds of comments come from someone who plays with a fairly fixed group where everyone in the group agrees that "formation x" is not worth the points.  That may be entirely true in the play style that group favors, but not true for someone who plays differently.

As an example, most people posting to the SG boards or on here think SM armor isn't worth the points, but every SM force I can recall from a tournament had at least 1 armor formation, sometimes 2, and they were competitive forces.
Author:  Dwarf Supreme [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
Quote (CorwinB @ 23 2005 Aug.,09:23)
- Dreadnoughts really scream for their own formation. It's supported by the fluff (including a pretty good example of a Dreadnought-only fight between Orks and SMs), is consistent with large-scale battles using units in a different way than skirmishes, and would make them a pretty nice unit with a very specific flavor (thanks to their decent mix of assault power, resiliency, and walker ability.

I agree, it should be possible to take Dreads as a separate formation.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
I think it has something to do with a gamers "style", as well ...  I always take Infantry supported by AFVs (all types) and Artillery (we still have T/guns, and Mortars as well as W/winds with our SMs!), Speeders,   then, Dreads, T/hawks and rarely Bikes ... that's my "way" ... :;):
Author:  CorwinB [ Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:36 am ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
Like what?  The only formations I don't see used are Vindicators or Tornado Speeders.


Note I said "entries", not formations. I also meant upgrade possibilities (who is going to take Dreadnoughts with Assault Marines or Commanders on Predators). I should have been clearer.
Author:  Jow [ Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:30 am ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
Why do people think Hunters are rubbish?


There are a number of reasons that I think Hunters are crap(as do the vast majority of the epic players I know).

-Every other AA unit in the game serves some additional purpose other than shooting down planes. Example: Hydras, Flakwagonz, and Firestorms can all shoot up infantry/tanks at an impressive rate.

-It gets the fewest kills per turn of all the basic AA units.

-It gets the fewest kills per point.

-Its 60 cm range advantage is pretty minor, and not even the longest in the game right now.

-Its worse than other SM vehicles in a FF(why worse than a Whirlwind? or Razorback?)

-Its extremely limited. SM players can only field  a few Hunters spread over several formations, where other armies can take multiple per formation or entire flak formations

-An insane amount of hunters(hundreds of points worth) statistically won't shoot down a flying WE like a Landa or Thunderhawk. This means most flying transports or bombers just fly right through your entire flak screen. Most armies can shoot down these AC if the effort/points is put forth.

I cannot understand what they are missing? Take two Hunters, and each and every enemy AC formation needs to roll at least a 3+, or more, just to get on the table, no matter how many AC they get.


Other armies can do this for far fewer points, and in more desirable formations.

Also if my opponent really wants to waste effort trying to keep my Hunters supressed, the rest of my SM army will make them pay for it, so I am fine with that to.


Who said they efforted the attack? All they need to do is attack a formation, and then the hunters a supressed. You cant do this with Hydras, Flakwagonz or Firestorms because they all have units with similar/longer range in them. Therefor, Hunters have a range of 45cm, not 60cm, when active in combat.

they're almost as good as hydras in terms of actual damage.


Really? 3 Hydras vs 2 Hunters:

Hydras= 6 shots @ 5+ AA = 2 Hits
Hunters = 2 Shots @ 4+ AA = 1 Hit.

Thats twice the average damage, with three times the potential. Hydras are also better per tank in FF, and per tank better against BOTH tanks and Infantry. Not bad for 25 points less.

Sorry about the rant, but my hatred for Hunters goes far beyond any play style issue. :angry:
Author:  -AL [ Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:38 am ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
I find hunters alone to be completely inadequite.  I really like thunderbolts, as I find them more usefull.  Air defence seems to be one the Marines larger weaknesses.
Author:  Tiny-Tim [ Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
Hhmmm let me think, formations not normally seen in a SM tournament army.

Lets start with Land Raiders - too expensive and tend to be targetted from the very beginning.

Predators - too expensive for what they do and also tend to die very easily.

Vindicators, Dreadnoughts already discussed by others.

Attackbikes - again the cost is not right and should be looked at as just infantry.

Landspeeders - Can't understand this myself but the armies I have faced in tounaments just don't seem to have them.

Thats all for now but the list does seem to become limited if you feel that the above units are not worth taking.

Tim
Author:  Tas [ Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
And just where are my Deathwind Support Drop Pods???

They dont even make the "counts as" list..... :angry:
Author:  Reaversbane [ Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
Tas, believe it or not they are covered by the normal drop pod rules. You get one drop pod 'counter' to represent all the drop pods of the formation, which they 'deploy' from, and that counter gets an AP5+/AT5+ Deathwind attack against anything within 15cm of it. Its a bit abstract, but in theory its there (it may be based vaguely on the current 40k drop pod rules, where you the deathwind is an optional upgrade for the drop pods).And as with SM/TL, its lots of fun against Orks :cool:
Author:  nealhunt [ Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
Note I said "entries", not formations. I also meant upgrade possibilities (who is going to take Dreadnoughts with Assault Marines or Commanders on Predators). I should have been clearer.


Ah.  Fair enough.  There are a lot of "non-options."
Author:  Tiny-Tim [ Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:43 am ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
So who's going to jump into the breach and take over TFH Army Champion roles then?

I would throw my hat in but I just don't play Marines. Hhhmmm maybe time to start another new Marine force :;):

Tiny
Author:  Tas [ Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:58 am ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
Quote (Reaversbane @ 24 2005 Aug.,22:44)
Tas, believe it or not they are covered by the normal drop pod rules.

Thanks RB, but I want to drop Deathwinds into enemy formations while I drop Troop carrying pods elsewhere....

Death From Orbit!  :D
Author:  Reaversbane [ Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
but I want to drop Deathwinds into enemy formations


Hmm. OK, more of a challenge :D It's a stretch, but you could pherhaps say the Orbital Barrage from the Strike Cruiser/Battlebarge is made up of Deathwinds? Futile pherhaps, but hey... :{



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