Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas |
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HecklerMD
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Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas  Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:53 am |
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Drop Pods can carry Dreds already:
From the rulbook notes for Drop Pods:
Notes: Planetfall, Transport (may carry one formation that includes only Tactical, Devestator, Scout and
Dreadnought units).
Perhaps I'm missing something however...
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Jow
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Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:13 pm |
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Well, I've played scads of games with my marines and agree for the most part with Jaldon that marines aren't super broken. However, they have issues that I think need to be addressed because they are easily the weakest army right now.
Issues I see:
1) The manner that marines hold onto BMs and how badly they can be outnumbered leads to starting many combats down from 1-4 points.
2) They have to take thunderbolts to deal with enemy AC. As my regular opponents take piles of aircraft, the cost and limits placed on Hunters have proven that they can't defend you from many/any air attacks.
3) Attack Bikes. So inferior to Landspeeders that there will likely NEVER be a reason to take them unless drastically changed.
4) Dreadnoughts. Need to be their own formation that can use drop pods. I'd also like to see a Multimelta option because they are still packaged with them.
5)Librarians. They can't compete with Chaplains. I think if they were TK(1) then it would fix marine warmachine problems and give librarians a use.
6) Predators. Simply not worth 300 points.
7) Landraiders. Also not worth 100 points a pop.
 Why does ATSKNF have a negative attached to it? Rallying with twice as many BMs as a regular formation while being half as big is crippling in many cases.
9) Marine formations dont get any leaders. Maybe its just us, but my group always thought that marine infantry formations should be lead by a veteran sergeant who is just a leader.
Those are my issues with the marines right now, in no real order. I know that they all won't get changed, but I also feel like its best to get them out in the open.
I've found that most marine armies are becoming "cookie cutter" armies because a number of the formations simply aren't worth the points or can't compete with other similar formations. I hate the overall sameness of these armies when the list has so many options.
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Breotan
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Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:58 pm |
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| Quote (Jow @ 04 2005 Aug.,15:13) | | 5)Librarians. They can't compete with Chaplains. I think if they were TK(1) then it would fix marine warmachine problems and give librarians a use. |
How do you justify giving a Librarian the TK ability? We're talking about a 50 point upgrade, here. If Librarians need to be upgunned, there must be a way to do it without making him a Ubernaught or a mandatory inclusion in each and every army?
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:37 pm |
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Location: Nashville, TN, USA
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Librarians don't need TK. They are incredibly flexible compared to Chaplains. I typically include as many or more Librarians as Chaplains in my armies now. If they were improved I would only take Chaplains in a few circumstances.
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Neal
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Random
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Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:03 pm |
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Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:04 pm
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An idea that I floated just before the forum changes at SG was to give assualt marines sniper on there Chain swords(I know its a unit ability but units can have weapon abilites such as first strike on warp spiders).
Against titans with 4+RF there attacks are almost as good as MW but against cheap guardsman they are no better. This bumps the specialist assualt units without improving the all round and firesupport units.
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Jow
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Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:02 pm |
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| Quote (nealhunt @ 04 2005 Aug.,22:37) | | Librarians don't need TK. ?They are incredibly flexible compared to Chaplains. ?I typically include as many or more Librarians as Chaplains in my armies now. ?If they were improved I would only take Chaplains in a few circumstances. |
Sorry it took me so long to reply, I was stuck in Springfield, Misery 
Librarians don't need TK. ?They are incredibly flexible compared to Chaplains. ?I typically include as many or more Librarians as Chaplains in my armies now. ?If they were improved I would only take Chaplains in a few circumstances. |
I don't see how you all think Librarians are better. ?
In combat, a chaplain always gives you +1 to the result because of the inspiring rule, not to mention the macro attack you get in CC. So a chaplain has a guaranteed +1 in combat, and can give you up to +2, for just 50 points.
A librarian on the other hand, will only give you +1 if you hit something and kill it. So a Librarian has ~50% chance of giving you just +1, and thats only if your fighting something that won't get a save against your macro attack.
From this, I believe its fairly obvious that the chaplain is even better in a FF because you still get the +1 for inspiring, where a Librarian only has a ~50% chance of that same +1.
I don't think a TK attack for a librarian makes them a must have, it just puts the output more inline with what the chaplain can give you.
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nealhunt
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Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:37 pm |
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| Purestrain |
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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
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Location: Nashville, TN, USA
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Jow: No sweat. Your opinion is not uncommon. I don't think anyone thinks Librarians are better, just that they don't get credit for what they can do.
When directly involved in an assault, the Librarian has access to both CC and FF MW attacks. That means they can take their pick of whichever is most advantageous. For example, if they are assaulting Leman Russ, they enter CC, but if they are fighting daemons, they can remain at FF. Either way, they get their MW attack. That flexibility adds a bit more impact than what your analysis above gives them.
But the most important thing is supporting assaults by other formations.
It has a lot to do with play style, but when playing marines I use a lot of heavily supported assaults rather than using the Commander ability for combined assaults.
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What can a Chaplain do in support of an assault?
Nothing. No attack. No bonus.
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What can a Librarian do in support of an assault?
MW FF attack.
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It's very common that I use a formation with a Librarian to move/shoot, then support an assault on their target formation. It's uncommon, but still semi-regular that I manage to support 2 separate assaults with a single formation. My crowning achievement in supporting formations was managing 40 MW attacks from 2 formations of Speeders in 2 turns against a biotitan. (Just had to brag a little there...  )
With that sort of play, a Librarian gets a lot more use than a Chaplain. A Librarian has more net effect by sheer number of attacks, so I prefer it for my style.
Chaplains still have their place for more direct application and I still use them, but for most formations I prefer the Librarian.
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Neal
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Jaldon
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Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:14 am |
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Not trying to beat on the subject here, but instead trying to add to Neal's comments.
Neal is correct when he points out just how flexible Librarians really are, in the right hands, because.......
It is a matter of playing 'style' that determines just how effective the Librarian is going to be.
If you are a smash grab combined assault SM player then you'll prbably find Chaplins more useful to your style of play.
If you are a Death From The Skies style of player you will aslo find Chaplins more useful then Librarians.
(Note: I am not saying useless, I am saying less useful in that style of players hands, to that player)
But if you are a Muhammad Ali style of SM player IE Float like a Butterfly, and sting like a Bee then you will find Librarians extremely useful.
Personnally I do not use them to the degree that Neal does, that different styles thing, but I'll have one or two bouncing around in my army.
My favorite location being the much maligned basic Land Speeder. They float in, shoot at the victim (read as target formation), and then the real assault goes in drawing all that real nice supporting fires +1 FFMW attack  Works well for me.
Jaldon
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Jow
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Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:59 am |
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BTTT 
I think we can agree to disagree with the overall usefulness of librarians. What of the other issues with the SM list?
I believe that several units are in dire need of fixing. Its competitive, and I win the majority of my games with them. But my army list excludes most of the units above. The majority of the time, I win games based almost entirely on the strength of my bikes and warhounds.
Id love it if two of my favorite units, attack bikes and vindicators, had much point to bringing them. Id love it if Hunters were comparable with the other AA units in the game, but they really arent. I own 16 Predators, and my regular opponents have started calling them free VPs.
I can win without these units, but I think we can ALL agree that its stupid for some units to be in the list but completely worthless. Why even include them then?
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Killed by Death
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Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 8:15 pm |
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Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:47 pm
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| Quote (Jaldon @ 10 2005 Aug.,09:14) | Not trying to beat on the subject here, but instead trying to add to Neal's comments.
Neal is correct when he points out just how flexible Librarians really are, in the right hands, because.......
It is a matter of playing 'style' that determines just how effective the Librarian is going to be.
If you are a smash grab combined assault SM player then you'll prbably find Chaplins more useful to your style of play.
If you are a Death From The Skies style of player you will aslo find Chaplins more useful then Librarians.
(Note: I am not saying useless, I am saying less useful in that style of players hands, to that player)
But if you are a Muhammad Ali style of SM player IE Float like a Butterfly, and sting like a Bee then you will find Librarians extremely useful.
Personnally I do not use them to the degree that Neal does, that different styles thing, but I'll have one or two bouncing around in my army.
My favorite location being the much maligned basic Land Speeder. They float in, shoot at the victim (read as target formation), and then the real assault goes in drawing all that real nice supporting fires +1 FFMW attack ?Works well for me.
Jaldon |
Hehehe I'll second the land speeder approach!
I tried it on toast with my orks this evening!
Wasn't much left but toast after the assault marines left.
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Lord Inquisitor
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Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 12:22 am |
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Quick point:
Why do people think Hunters are rubbish? They look pretty good to me. They've one of the best AA ranges, you can add them to a bunch of formations with no real downside, and they're almost as good as hydras in terms of actual damage.
And I'll reinforce the idea that Librarians have their uses. If you want a character for your Devastators, the Librarian is your man/genetically engineered superhuman.
Lord Inquisitor.
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Jaldon
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Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:54 am |
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Jaldon is Home, yea.........
Onto Hunters............
I cannot understand what they are missing? Take two Hunters, and each and every enemy AC formation needs to roll at least a 3+, or more, just to get on the table, no matter how many AC they get.
Also if my opponent really wants to waste effort trying to keep my Hunters supressed, the rest of my SM army will make them pay for it, so I am fine with that to.
So I am a bit lost as to why?
Jaldon
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-AL
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Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:56 am |
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Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:02 am
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I'd be happier if you could atleast add 2 Hunters to a formation.
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Killed by Death
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Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:33 pm |
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Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:47 pm
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| Quote (-AL @ 22 2005 Aug.,05:56) | | I'd be happier if you could atleast add 2 Hunters to a formation. |
Well the object is to make a balanced and competable list.
Not to make people happy. Just look at the eldar!
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