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Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas

 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 8:25 pm 
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This thread was going in the old SG forum, and I thought I would transfer some of it here.


(1) In General Too Weak in Assaults
(Fix) Change outnumber result to the following
(A) If outnumbered by 2 to 1, or more then enemy gets +1
(B) If Even or just outnumbered enemy gets +0
© If Marines outnumber enemy they get +2

(2) Vindicator Not Worth It
(A) Increase it's speed to 25cm
(B) Give it FF+1 attacks
© Give Demolisher Cannon Ignore Cover
OR
(D) Decrease it's Detachment cost to 200pts, and per unit cost to 50pts

(3) Too Weak Against WE
(A) Make Hunter MW4+TKD3 AA4+ :p
(B) Live with it every army should have weaknesses

Hey just some ideas, I am open

Jaldon :oo

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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:46 pm 
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Give Demolisher Cannon Ignore Cover


I agree - I have always thought this shoud be applied: its appropriate fluff wise and correlates in comparison to some other IG platforms

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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:29 am 
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Trouble is, it doesn't ignore cover, it demolishes it.... that's what the Brumbar, it's ancestor in WWII, was used for.

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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:30 am 
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Considering the Marines general lack of TK weapons the Vindy might be pushed into this role as well. Any weapons which can smash apart a concrete bunker should be pretty nasty on a Titan as well.

It would also give the Vindy a very distinct role in the Marine Army...

Apart from that I like the above mentioned suggestions.

Cheers! :)

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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 11:34 am 
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Quote Jaldon
(1) In General Too Weak in Assaults
(Fix) Change outnumber result to the following
(A) If outnumbered by 2 to 1, or more then enemy gets +1
(B) If Even or just outnumbered enemy gets +0
? If Marines outnumber enemy they get +2
End Quote

I think this is a good idea.

Quote Jaldon
(2) Vindicator Not Worth It
(A) Increase it's speed to 25cm
(B) Give it FF+1 attacks
? Give Demolisher Cannon Ignore Cover
OR
(D) Decrease it's Detachment cost to 200pts, and per unit cost to 50pts
End Quote

A and B definetly, perhaps give it ignore cover in FF (although would beg question why doesn't leman russ demolisher or baneblade get this ability)

Quote Jaldon
(3) Too Weak Against WE
(A) Make Hunter MW4+TKD3 AA4+ ?
(B) Live with it every army should have weaknesses
End Quote

I personally do think its necesary to give the marines a little bit more to deal with war engines.

I quite like the idea of some sort of melta charges upgrade, which could be purchased for specific units (such as assault marines). Although I can forsee problems with this.

I would also give marine leaders the ability to remove 2 blast markers.

Also give them one free commander, I find it strange to see all these space marine companies running around lead by a chapters worth of chaplains but no commanders, of course this last ones just my opinion on a background matter and is unlikely.

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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:46 pm 
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Another issue springs to mind:
Dreadnoughts.
There's been some suggestions about letting them use Drop Pods for increased mobility. The main issue seems top be their very slow speed which isn't really in line with the Marine philosophy of mobility.

Cheers! :)

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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:48 pm 
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I agree.  There is some good firepower there - but getting it into range has always been a problem.  Lets face it, most battles are decided by turns 3 or 4 and these guys are lucky to get a shot in...

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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:54 pm 
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And modern 40K fluff permits Drop-Dredds..... :p

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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:13 pm 
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Quote (Jaldon @ 31 2005 July,20:25)
(1) In General Too Weak in Assaults

(2) Vindicator Not Worth It
(A) Increase it's speed to 25cm
© Give Demolisher Cannon Ignore Cover

(3) Too Weak Against WE
(B) Live with it every army should have weaknesses

Jaldon :oo

Are Marines weak in assault?

Whenever my regular opponent gets an engagment going I really suffer, but if I do it on my terms then he suffers.

Vindicator - Increase in speed almost universally agreed & ignore cover, no problems from me there.

Can't deal with WE? Well there are termies, and you can have your own WEs so whats the problem.

Now for the disclaimer. I don't play Marines. I find them too difficult to play with, but I am prepared to look for solutions and try and test new ideas.

A problem that has been raised is that a single shot can cripple the movement of a formation by destroying one of its transports. Now Marines can still double and March which can cover a lot of ground.

I originally had a possible solution of increasing the save for Rhinos and Razorbacks, but discussing this with Nick (Mekboy) Simmerson, Speed Freak Champion and general brilliant player he came up with a better solution.

Similar to IG and their Commissars, Marines have Techmarines. Before a battle the Marine player rolls a D3+1 for techmarines (assuming upto 3000pts). He does not have to allocate these, but must have a suitable marking system to show that he has them.

Then during the game these techmarines may be used to allow the player to re-roll a failed armour save on a vehicle. Note a save can only be re-rolled once and if the vehicle has already used a re-roll for say Reinforced Armour, he can't re-roll a re-roll. However if the same vehicle is hit by a MW then the first save is lost, the second save can be taken and if this is failed then a techmarine may be used. Of course TK weapons would not be affected by this rule.

Well I'm open for comments and if there is a bit that doesn't make sense then I'll try to clarify it.

Tim

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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:28 pm 
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I like the Tech-Marine: After all, it worked well in SM2!
Would that also herald the return of the Medic with personnel saves?

When I pushed this in the initial EA playest forum (lets see, thats 3 offiial forums ago now..) I was told it was too complex?  has this officla attitud echanged to allow more character diversity?

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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 3:48 pm 
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I, too, like the ideas of Tech-Marines and Medics.

As for the Vindy, it should have the Ignore Cover ability.

Dreads- let them be able to be deployed by drop pod. Also, am I the only one that would like to see them as seperate formations, instead of just upgrades?

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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:02 pm 
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I think the marines are pretty close to being okay and only need some minor tweaks.  Here are the items I have advocated to the Rules Committee:

Vindicator - up the speed to 25cm
All armor formations (except Whirlwinds) - drop 25 points to 275 points/375 for LRs

TSKNF changes:
Leaders remove 2 BMs
Drop the outnumber mod by 1, i.e. outnumbered is +0, outnumbered more than double is -1.

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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:53 am 
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It has been a while since I jumped in on this but...
I am still of the mind that Tech-marines and medics don't need to be complicated to be in the game. The "Leadership" ability alone works well. ... sorry but I don't want to hear the "They aren't leaders!" argument. It is the effect not what you call it. The point is that you get a reasonable solution with out adding any new rules (except maybe expanding their Invulnerable Save to include some number of units in the detachment.)

In any fluff I can remember SM's could care less about beinging outnumbered, period.

end of rant :cool:

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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:28 am 
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Good point.  Fluss-wise, if Marines aren't outnumbered, then the Emperors resources are being waisted.

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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:26 am 
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Quote Warmaster Nice
Dreadnoughts.
There's been some suggestions about letting them use Drop Pods for increased mobility.
End Quote

*Jaldon looks left then right* pssssst Dreadnoughts can use drop pods, and Thunderhawks, and Landing Craft already.

Jaldon :oo

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