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Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas

 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:37 pm 
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Jow:  No sweat.  Your opinion is not uncommon.  I don't think anyone thinks Librarians are better, just that they don't get credit for what they can do.

When directly involved in an assault, the Librarian has access to both CC and FF MW attacks.  That means they can take their pick of whichever is most advantageous.  For example, if they are assaulting Leman Russ, they enter CC, but if they are fighting daemons, they can remain at FF.  Either way, they get their MW attack.  That flexibility adds a bit more impact than what your analysis above gives them.

But the most important thing is supporting assaults by other formations.

It has a lot to do with play style, but when playing marines I use a lot of heavily supported assaults rather than using the Commander ability for combined assaults.

====
What can a Chaplain do in support of an assault?
Nothing.  No attack.  No bonus.

====
What can a Librarian do in support of an assault?
MW FF attack.

====

It's very common that I use a formation with a Librarian to move/shoot, then support an assault on their target formation.  It's uncommon, but still semi-regular that I manage to support 2 separate assaults with a single formation.  My crowning achievement in supporting formations was managing 40 MW attacks from 2 formations of Speeders in 2 turns against a biotitan.  (Just had to brag a little there... :D )

With that sort of play, a Librarian gets a lot more use than a Chaplain.  A Librarian has more net effect by sheer number of attacks, so I prefer it for my style.

Chaplains still have their place for more direct application and I still use them, but for most formations I prefer the Librarian.





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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:14 am 
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Not trying to beat on the subject here, but instead trying to add to Neal's comments.

Neal is correct when he points out just how flexible Librarians really are, in the right hands, because.......

It is a matter of playing 'style' that determines just how effective the Librarian is going to be.

If you are a smash grab combined assault SM player then you'll prbably find Chaplins more useful to your style of play.

If you are a Death From The Skies style of player you will aslo find Chaplins more useful then Librarians.

(Note: I am not saying useless, I am saying less useful in that style of players hands, to that player)

But if you are a Muhammad Ali style of SM player IE Float like a Butterfly, and sting like a Bee then you will find Librarians extremely useful.

Personnally I do not use them to the degree that Neal does, that different styles thing, but I'll have one or two bouncing around in my army.

My favorite location being the much maligned basic Land Speeder. They float in, shoot at the victim (read as target formation), and then the real assault goes in drawing all that real nice supporting fires +1 FFMW attack :laugh:  Works well for me.

Jaldon :oo

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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:59 am 
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BTTT  :;):

I think we can agree to disagree with the overall usefulness of librarians. What of the other issues with the SM list?

I believe that several units are in dire need of fixing. Its competitive, and I win the majority of my games with them. But my army list excludes most of the units above. The majority of the time, I win games based almost entirely on the strength of my bikes and warhounds.

Id love it if two of my favorite units, attack bikes and vindicators, had much point to bringing them. Id love it if Hunters were comparable with the other AA units in the game, but they really arent. I own 16 Predators, and my regular opponents have started calling them free VPs.

I can win without these units, but I think we can ALL agree that its stupid for some units to be in the list but completely worthless. Why even include them then?

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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 8:15 pm 
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Quote (Jaldon @ 10 2005 Aug.,09:14)
Not trying to beat on the subject here, but instead trying to add to Neal's comments.

Neal is correct when he points out just how flexible Librarians really are, in the right hands, because.......

It is a matter of playing 'style' that determines just how effective the Librarian is going to be.

If you are a smash grab combined assault SM player then you'll prbably find Chaplins more useful to your style of play.

If you are a Death From The Skies style of player you will aslo find Chaplins more useful then Librarians.

(Note: I am not saying useless, I am saying less useful in that style of players hands, to that player)

But if you are a Muhammad Ali style of SM player IE Float like a Butterfly, and sting like a Bee then you will find Librarians extremely useful.

Personnally I do not use them to the degree that Neal does, that different styles thing, but I'll have one or two bouncing around in my army.

My favorite location being the much maligned basic Land Speeder. They float in, shoot at the victim (read as target formation), and then the real assault goes in drawing all that real nice supporting fires +1 FFMW attack :laugh: ?Works well for me.

Jaldon :oo

Hehehe I'll second the land speeder approach!

I tried it on toast with my orks this evening!

Wasn't much left but toast after the assault marines left.

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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 12:22 am 
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Quick point:

Why do people think Hunters are rubbish? They look pretty good to me. They've one of the best AA ranges, you can add them to a bunch of formations with no real downside, and they're almost as good as hydras in terms of actual damage.

And I'll reinforce the idea that Librarians have their uses. If you want a character for your Devastators, the Librarian is your man/genetically engineered superhuman.

Lord Inquisitor.


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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:54 am 
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Jaldon is Home, yea.........

Onto Hunters............

I cannot understand what they are missing? Take two Hunters, and each and every enemy AC formation needs to roll at least a 3+, or more, just to get on the table, no matter how many AC they get.

Also if my opponent really wants to waste effort trying to keep my Hunters supressed, the rest of my SM army will make them pay for it, so I am fine with that to.

So I am a bit lost as to why?

Jaldon :oo

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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:56 am 
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I'd be happier if you could atleast add 2 Hunters to a formation.

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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:33 pm 
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Quote (-AL @ 22 2005 Aug.,05:56)
I'd be happier if you could atleast add 2 Hunters to a formation.

Well the object is to make a balanced and competable list.

Not to make people happy. Just look at the eldar!  :D

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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 3:43 pm 
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That is something to look at with all Armies and rule updates ... player style and "bias" ... It's easy to fall into that mind set ...
:;):

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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:23 am 
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The main problem with the SM list is that it would be very possible to discard anywhere from 25% to 50% of all the entries in the list and not affect its global efficacity, since some formations/upgrades are nearly never used...

On top of my head :
- Dreadnoughts really scream for their own formation. It's supported by the fluff (including a pretty good example of a Dreadnought-only fight between Orks and SMs), is consistent with large-scale battles using units in a different way than skirmishes, and would make them a pretty nice unit with a very specific flavor (thanks to their decent mix of assault power, resiliency, and walker ability.
- Vindicators could really use at the very least a bump in speed
- Hunters should be an option for Predators and Land Raiders formations


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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:48 pm 
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The main problem with the SM list is that it would be very possible to discard anywhere from 25% to 50% of all the entries in the list and not affect its global efficacity, since some formations/upgrades are nearly never used...


Like what?  The only formations I don't see used are Vindicators or Tornado Speeders.

====

This isn't to pick on CorwinB, but typically, it seems that these kinds of comments come from someone who plays with a fairly fixed group where everyone in the group agrees that "formation x" is not worth the points.  That may be entirely true in the play style that group favors, but not true for someone who plays differently.

As an example, most people posting to the SG boards or on here think SM armor isn't worth the points, but every SM force I can recall from a tournament had at least 1 armor formation, sometimes 2, and they were competitive forces.

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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:08 pm 
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Quote (CorwinB @ 23 2005 Aug.,09:23)
- Dreadnoughts really scream for their own formation. It's supported by the fluff (including a pretty good example of a Dreadnought-only fight between Orks and SMs), is consistent with large-scale battles using units in a different way than skirmishes, and would make them a pretty nice unit with a very specific flavor (thanks to their decent mix of assault power, resiliency, and walker ability.

I agree, it should be possible to take Dreads as a separate formation.

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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:50 pm 
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I think it has something to do with a gamers "style", as well ...  I always take Infantry supported by AFVs (all types) and Artillery (we still have T/guns, and Mortars as well as W/winds with our SMs!), Speeders,   then, Dreads, T/hawks and rarely Bikes ... that's my "way" ... :;):

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 Post subject: Space Marine Fixes Thoughts/Ideas
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:36 am 
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Like what?  The only formations I don't see used are Vindicators or Tornado Speeders.


Note I said "entries", not formations. I also meant upgrade possibilities (who is going to take Dreadnoughts with Assault Marines or Commanders on Predators). I should have been clearer.

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