Thanks redsimon
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| A question about transports http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13211 |
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| Author: | levinas [ Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | A question about transports |
Second game of epic completed and my orks threw the smack down on the IG. This time we even managed to remember to aim for the various objectives... The following question came up: What happens to transported units when their transports are destroyed (we let them disembark)? A none rules question also arose - what's the best way to get orks into combat? It seems pretty tricky to get near enough to assault on foot so presumably vehicles are the way... Any tips? |
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| Author: | scarik [ Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | A question about transports |
When a transport is destroyed all units inside take a hit and may save as normal. As for orks reaching combat, you are right that being in wagonz is the basic way. However you should generally let the size of your formations force the enemy to Engage you to drive them off Objectives. There's very little that satisfies like having a 'Uge Warband garrisoned in the middle of the table and using its rather impressive Overwatch to really ruin someones day. On a related note do you have any Landas, an air assault using a Warband with 2 Boyz added (for a total of 8 Boyz, 2 Nobz, 4 Grotz plus 3DC Landa) is brutal. |
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| Author: | The_Real_Chris [ Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | A question about transports |
Your transported troops get a save, even if they are guard, anyone remember how much and teh page ref? |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | A question about transports |
IIRC it's a save of a 6... isn't this a rule that was accidentally omitted from the rulebook and added back in later through the Errata? |
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| Author: | levinas [ Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | A question about transports |
Thanks guys. I couldn't (and still can't) find that in the rulebook. I'll take a look in the errata. Garrisoning sounds good to me. We used it this game (didn't in game one) and it made a massive (and good) difference to both sides, making infantry much more useful. My normal ork mob that was garrisoned in ruins in the centre of the table never got shifted. Next time maybe I'll add the stompa mob to them as on their own (3 stompas) they got broken almost immediately and never recovered. Cheers - L. |
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| Author: | redsimon [ Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | A question about transports |
Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 01 Aug. 2008, 00:42 ) Your transported troops get a save, even if they are guard, anyone remember how much and teh page ref? First page of the Errata (6+ Cover Save). |
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| Author: | levinas [ Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | A question about transports |
Thanks redsimon
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| Author: | Dave [ Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | A question about transports |
So that poses an interesting choice for guard. Dismount and stay in base contact with the AV for the -1 to hit. Or stay in the AV and get a 6+ cover save. |
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| Author: | scarik [ Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | A question about transports |
That's not a very interesting choice, inside a chimera a single AT hit means the Chimera's 5+ is all that stands between 2 IG stands with a 6+. Outside they get the 'in cover' -1 and it would take at least 3 hits to kill them all. And in a Mechanized formation its better to lose more infantry than to lose too many transports. |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | A question about transports |
Quote: (scarik @ 01 Aug. 2008, 16:44 ) That's not a very interesting choice, inside a chimera a single AT hit means the Chimera's 5+ is all that stands between 2 IG stands with a 6+. Outside they get the 'in cover' -1 and it would take at least 3 hits to kill them all. And in a Mechanized formation its better to lose more infantry than to lose too many transports. Scarik: There are several situations where it can make sense. Most units are considerably better at AP fire than AT and many formations are optimized when firing at a mixed inf/AV formation (like Tbolts with one shot each AP, AT, and AP/AT). In a lot of cases it's 2x the amount of firepower. You don't get a cover save for touching a vehicle, so you're facing more AP hits which autokill the infantry, or fewer AT-only shots which the infantry might survive even if the transport dies. You also seem to be assuming that the transports won't ever be in cover. It's entirely possible to have vehicles in cover via "hull down" positions so they are also getting the to-hit mod without having to face a terrain check. Most commonly in our games, that happens when a formation is trying to hide behind terrain but can't quite all fit so some of them are partially exposed. Without the "extra" -1 to hit mod for infantry in cover versus a vehicle in the open, the ratio of total damage sustained while loaded versus unloaded changes significantly. Another situation is barrage weapons. Drop a barrage on unloaded troops using a vehicle for cover and it's 3x the number of attacks as a loaded transport. |
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| Author: | scarik [ Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | A question about transports |
Fair enough, Neil. I tend to be the one doing the barraging around here though, so maybe its a matter of what I tend to face talking. |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | A question about transports |
To be honest, IG isn't a good example. The relative saves of the transport and infantry really have more to do with it. There's seldom reason for Guardians not to stay in a Wave Serpent, for instance. With double the save and AV status, it's almost always worth it to stay mounted. Same for Orks in a Battlefortress. Hmm... your barrage can attack the 4+ save Fort twice or I can dismount and give you 8-10 attacks with some very poor armor saves... pretty much a no-brainer. Less so against other kinds of fire, but an ork that dismounts when facing massed barrages clearly has a death wish. 
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| Author: | asaura [ Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | A question about transports |
I'm not convinced on the Barrage thing. The unit coherence rules make for more vehicles covered with the barrage when the infantry is mounted. When you are dismounted, you take up more space and your vehicles are more widely spaced. A single barrage template generally covers one or two vehicles and some infantry. When you are mounted, the template often covers three or four vehicles. This results in more vehicles hit, meaning more dead guardsmen. Let's look at the math, assuming a Sustained Fire 3BP attack against a guard mech company. First, the guardsmen are dismounted. Two Chimeras hit and four guardsmen under it. Chimera casualties = 2(units) * 3/6(to hit) * 4/6(save lost) = 4/6 Chimeras lost Guard casualties = 4 * 3/6 * 1 = 2 Guardsmen lost Total units lost 2,7. As a rule of thumb, you lose half the units under the barrage template. Then the same attack against mounted guard. Assume four chimeras under the template. Chimera casualties = 4 * 3/6 * 4/6 = 8/6 Chimeras lost Guard casualties result from lost Chimeras = 8/6 * 2 * 5/6 = 20/9 Total units lost 3,6. As a rule of thumb, it's one unit lost per chimera under the barrage template. If you can space your mounted Chimeras so that there are only three chimeras under the template, the end result is very close to dismounting. Note that all of the above only concerns barrages. It does not take into account the fact that you WILL lose the initiative and that the other WILL pound your mounted Chimeras with everything. Leaving guardsmen mounted in Chimeras is never a no-brainer. It requires special circumstances to work. |
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| Author: | asaura [ Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | A question about transports |
Hena, no. The to-hit chance against guardsmen touching their transports is as follows. Base to-hit number for 3BP against soft targets = 4+. Sustained fire +1. Cover -1. Net to-hit number = 4+ = 3/6 chance to hit. The big picture does not change when the barrage comes from Advance or Hold orders. To-hit rolls go from 4+ to 5+ for both the AT and AP fire, so the proportions stay the same. Doubling barrages are not designed to kill anything in the first place... |
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