Tactical Command
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Space Marine Legion List
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13180		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  J0k3r [ Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legion List
OK, heres my stab at a space marine legion list based on Red Sorcerors list. CLICKY

Design Notes:
I want to make the legion list look and feel quite different to the current list with a focus on ground formations.  From peoples comments the marine armies of the heresy were much more like IG armies- i.e. large, heavy instruments, and far less flexible than the E:A list.  

To do this Ive made tactical, dev, assault, bikes and speeders core formations, and teh others support.  I am considering changing this to put bikes and speeders as support and have some armour as core formations (poss pred and LR).  What are peoples thoughts on this structure?

Marine Armour- should the costs come down to make a marine armour list more feasible?

SHT- fellblade (baneblade) and Stormhammer.  RS put the Stormsword in, but I fell this is too heavy and long range.  For the heresy, something short ranged and brutal feels more appropriate.  Im willing to change this if needs be.

New things- Storm bird and jet bike.  Stormbird- I need stats for.  Currently costed just above a landing craft.  Jet bike is just a bike plus skimmer.

See what you think  :smile:
Author:  Mephiston [ Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legion List
I'd move the bikes/speeders to support and move pred's and Land Raiders to core.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legion List
I would allow the Tank Detachments to be upgraded with the same number of tanks.
Whole Companies of eg Land Raiders should be possible during this era.
Author:  J0k3r [ Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legion List
@BL- That is actually something I was contemplating.  And with the infantry upgrade- how about an upgrade of 4 stands?  Or is that overkill? (i.e. max sizes of 10 tac & 8 Assault/dev nits per formation.  

Do we lower the unit costs, or could we balance the lists for a higher total, say in the region of 4000-5000 points?
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legion List
Is this loyalist or traitor?
Author:  BlackLegion [ Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legion List
Pre-Heresy it seems .D
Author:  J0k3r [ Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legion List
Its supposed to be loyalist from the heresy.
Any other thoughts?
Author:  scarik [ Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legion List
Before the Heresy the Legions had direct command of the Imperial Guard and thus Gaurdsmen operated in armies with marines to fill out the numbers.

A pre-heresy list should really be a combined SM/IG army, at the very least a SM army with its 1/3 Navy/Titan allotment also being able to buy IG troops.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legion List
Easy way to make the formations big is to remove ATSKNF then you can have companies of troops and tanks.
Author:  scarik [ Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:35 am ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legion List
Why would you ever remove ATSKNF from a Loyalist Marine? Its pretty much their defining shtick.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:01 am ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legion List
It is now. Perhaps its based on blind faith and the legions back then didn't have it. Did the traitors lose faith or did the loyalists get a measure of blind desperate faith?
Author:  daemonkin [ Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:28 am ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legion List
I'm really keen to test this out in an upcoming campaign we are planning.

Idea is to use Epic/BFG/Aero and new 5th edition 40K with a rulebase known as Warhammer30k to do a heresy era campaign with loyalists and traitors duking it out.

I'll have a read through this tonight and propose it to the guys on Wednesday. I'm sure we can get inspiration and add some comments on this list.

Jok3r: I'd say yes aim to balance for about 5k that means we can get a lot of troops on the board which give a suitable heresy epic feel.

D.
Author:  The Red Sorcerer [ Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:29 am ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legion List
Like the look of it so far. A few thoughts:

I agree with Mephiston that switching bikes/speeders to support and preds/land raiders to core makes sense.

In the unit stats you have given jetbikes a AP/AT attack. I assume this is a mistake seeing as they are based on bikes which only have small arms.

The pred stats have autocannon and lascannons. The background also supports them having heavy bolter sponsons during this period... maybe have options for a anti tank pred with the las and a anti infantry one with the heavy bolters? No anhillator turret with twin las though, that was a post-heresy development.

My personal preference would be to go back to the Shadowsword equivalent rather than the Stormhammer for a few reasons - it is supported by the background, it means introducing less 'new' units which probably means balancing the list would be easier, and it just seems appropriate that Legion armies should have a titan killer attack available, particularly seeing as they faced plenty of combat against traitor Titan Legions during this period. If people feel that the long range is innapropriate, maybe just drop the range on the Volcano Cannon.

@Skaric - I think keeping the marine list separate from the Guard is a better option. After all, Space Marine commanders often have overall command of a warzone including the IG in 41st millenium, but they still have separate lists. Adding guard elements would make any sort of balance much more difficult to achieve as well. Finally, going by the HH novels and background, Legions normally fought on their own anyway.. I can think of one example where they fight together with the Imperial Army (Davin's Moon) against countless times where they fight on their own or with limited Titan support (63-19, the Whisperheads, Murder, the Interex, Istvaan III, Istvaan V, the Diasporex and so on).

One thought on ATSKNF - one idea is to use it to differentiate between the Loyalist and Traitor lists, seeing as otherwise the traitors will have the same list with extra options (demons and demon engines). It seems appropriate for the Loyalists to be more stalwart (particularly if this is set at the Siege of Terra where they were fighting for the very survival of the Imperium).
Author:  J0k3r [ Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:58 am ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legion List
Thank's for your comments everyone, its great stuff!

@RS: on the SHT front the shadowsword probably is a good idea as it is more balanced than the stormhammer.  Does it merit ATSKNF?  ie were the tanks crewed by marines?

I think ATSKNF will stay, but it is not going to be in the traitor list to differentiate between loyalists and traitors.

Thanks for the stat catches, ill add those changes to preds and jetbikes.  And the bikes/speeders and armour will be swapping (at least to make the whitescars feel special!)

Regarding the mixture of IG and marines, I am thinking that the lists should be kept separate for the most part.  I am considering a new allies system though where you can have up to 40% or 50% of your force drawn from other arms (to represent the closer interaction between forces during the heresy). From this you can select:

-Titans
-Navy
-Core choices from another list.  So IG companies or marine core formations.  THis way you can make things more balanced by keeping the real goodies (such as Deathstrikes) in support slots.

What do you think?

Things to add- Thudd guns, rapiers, tarantulas and mole mortars. Any others?
Author:  The Red Sorcerer [ Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legion List
Quote: (J0k3r @ 28 Jul. 2008, 11:58 )

@RS: on the SHT front the shadowsword probably is a good idea as it is more balanced than the stormhammer.  Does it merit ATSKNF?  ie were the tanks crewed by marines?

I think ATSKNF will stay, but it is not going to be in the traitor list to differentiate between loyalists and traitors.

Things to add- Thudd guns, rapiers, tarantulas and mole mortars. Any others?

Yep, the SHTs were crewed by marines, so they should have ATSKNF.

Like the idea of having ATSKNF to differentiate between loyalists and traitors.

I don't think the list really needs loads of new stuff. The new HH background doesn't have any picturtes/mentions of thudd guns or mole mortars, so I'd give those a miss at least. Tarantulas are available to post-heresy marines via the Imperial Armour supplements, but don't turn up in the Epic list, so I don't think putting them in is appropriate either. There are a few examples of Rapiers in the Collected Visions, so that might be a possibility. Essentially though my advice would be to try and keep the list as close to the existing Codex one as possible... makes it easier to balance for one thing, and adding lots of new units has a tendency to overcomplicate things.
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