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Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*

 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:02 pm 
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Hey all,

Is there a documented list of all the changes inbetween 3.4 and 3.5 of the Black Legion list anywhere?

I'd like to take a look at the full list of changes just in an itemized fashion if possible instead of comparing the old and new list back and forth.

Thanks in advance,

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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:01 am 
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I know I haven't seen one - maybe if you email/PM pixelgeek he'll be able to supply one.

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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:07 pm 
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PG and I don't necessarily have the best working relationship. I'm fairly confident that any email I would send him wouldn't get much milage.

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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:46 am 
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Quote (Tactica @ 09 2005 Aug.,14:07)
PG and I don't necessarily have the best working relationship. I'm fairly confident that any email I would send him wouldn't get much milage.

It costs you nothing to send him an email and see.

Might shock you and do a nice thing, or he may do as you expect. But if he does nothing, you are no worse off then you are now.

dafrca

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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:58 am 
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Daf,

OK mr. sunshine...  :p

I'll email him.

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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 3:47 pm 
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I think you'll be surprised.  Despite his abrasive posting style, PG is a nice guy.

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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:34 pm 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 10 2005 Aug.,07:47)
I think you'll be surprised. ?Despite his abrasive posting style, PG is a nice guy.

I didn't keep a change log for 3.5 as I was doing most of it via the old Forum but IIRC the changes are

Helltalon
Point increase. Change to bombs

Titan Critical
Reworded Titan criticals. Feral and Ravager have Imperical criticals. The Banelord has a reworded and simpler Daemoinc Rage critical

Forlorn Hope
Making the Forlon Hope only CSM units and not Cult Marines

CSM Retinue
Changing size of Retinue back to 8 units and decreasing allowable Upgrades to a maximum of four. Decreased point cost

Assault Company
0-2 limit

Summoning
Extensive changes. Single summoning pool. Daemon access via Upgrade. Limits to daemon retention

Obliterator
75 points (this may have been in 3.4)

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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:27 pm 
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Oblits were already 75 in 3.4 and the points costs of the Forlorn Hope went from 150 to 125 in 3.5. :D




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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:39 pm 
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The Deamon Prince has had fearless added,(thuoght that the amount of fearless troops were a problem along with MW,ignore cover combo weapons)
Champion of Chaos now gets 2d3 instead of d6 for augmenting summoning.

I like the look of the new summoning process.


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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:07 am 
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Is there anywhere I can get a copy of 3.5?

D.

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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:44 am 
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Quote (daemonkin @ 12 2005 Aug.,10:07)
Is there anywhere I can get a copy of 3.5?

http://www.specialist-games.com/epic/Vault.asp

Right at the bottom.

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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:26 pm 
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Does anyone know why the newer files seem to be appearing at the bottom of the list? I'd've thought it would have made more sense to have had them either in alphabetical order (and not just because the AMTL would be at the top :p ) or with the newest files at the top.

Just strikes me as odd.

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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 6:13 am 
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Quote (dysartes @ 12 2005 Aug.,08:26)
Just strikes me as odd.

And you are talking about who?  :;):

GW = ODD

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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:50 pm 
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I didn't play the BL or against it this past weekend, but I did get to see a 8K game of epic BL 3.5 vs. Almost all Terminator Marines list staged deep in a hive city.

I was playing a 6K 40K game shortly after the first turn of the Epic game. (That was IG vs. Orks on the table next to them) but as our game was late to get started, I know the majority of the game's results as it was pretty much a wipe out against marines.

The BL list had a banelord, a chaos reaver, and two independent ferals. He had 2 sets of helltalons, 4 really really big infantry formations with rhinos, characters, and lots of deamonsummoning stuff. He maxed out Tzeentch cult marines in each formation though for the Fearless, RA 4+ armor terminator equivilent capabilities which he says are the cream of the crop. He had what he called "the 2 obligatory decimator formations". And whatever else he had I cannot recall.

The Marine player hasn't been able to beat the v3.4 list - ever, and he thought this almost all terminator list would be a good 'cheese list' to try at this points level vs. the new 3.4 list. The marine player had 16 terminator formations with commanders sprinked in here and there. He had 12 fliers, 1 of the large lander/transporters full of goods to deliver, and whatever else he had I can't recall.

The chaos player had to start placed casually into the city spread out all over the city with very few formations really positioned to lend support to another due to scenerio and being caught off guard by a Marine assault. The marines were trying to take the city. Infantry was all deployed on streets next to vehicels. Titans were all in streets. nothing deployed into buildings by design.

The marines teleported their entire terminator army onto the city in turn 1 and surrounded various targets of opportunity. The terminators were all in buidlings and ruins. Blast markers were placed here and there.

Chaos won the initiative roll off. One large formation of chaos summoned 6 screamer daemons with 4d3 roll (below average) and engaged 4 terminator formations that were intermingled. The terminators lost 5 models and the chaos formation had nothing but the 4 fearless, 4+ RA, Tzeentch marines left. Chaos formation broke. Chaos learned their lesson, they would only FF in combat from here on out.

Chaos retained their initiative, summoned 8 flamer deamons (the new average roll for deamons with augment) and activated their second of four really large formations of chaos BL to engage. They engaged the terminators but only in a FF role. 12 terminators died to the man. Chaos lost some flamers and some of the troops. Chaos won taking just a few blast markers.

Marines were going to activate and assault the banelord with several terminators on another front. Marines rolled a 1 to activate. The supreme commander was off table in a lander.

In the chaos turn, the banelord activated and shot one terminator formation to bits.

Chaos retained and activated another chaos formation to summon flamers (rolled a 10 on 4d3 this time) and assaulted the intermingled terminators on this side of the city - FF them only. Chaos killed two of 3 formations, but the third died due to over kill from assault. Chaos only lost daemons over here and took no blast markers.

In the marines second attempt to activate in the first turn, they called in the supreme commander for an air assault against the banelord, rolled a 1. Supreme commander was in the formation being transported so a reroll was attempted but another 1 to activate!

Chaos third activation attempt and 5th formation now - marines hadn't got to activate successfully yet!

Feral Titan formation kills an 8th formation of terminators by firing on them and puts blast markers on other nearby formations.

Chaos retains a 3rd time and activates the reaver equivilent chaos titan and breaks or kills (can't remember) a 9th formation of termys.

Marines 3rd attempt to activate are finally successfull. 3 formations of termys following a commander chap assault and kill a reaver titan by gettting a load of models into base to base with it - MW h-t-h combat death for titan.

By the end of turn 1, Marines would lose 13 of 16 terminator formations to the man and they would lose about 1/3rd of their fliers.

Chaos would lose both formations of helltalons, reaver, and one formation of chaos marines was down to 4 fearless models.

Marines conceded on the end of turn 1. They were shut out bad.

Some things that were discussed by the players of the game:

Why do the marines have to strike in to really do any damage, shouldn't they be able to play a standard force with deployment that has a chance?

Why did the marines get blown out in 1 turn with an all elite force?

Why did the marines 8000 point army have a hard time doing 1000 points of damage with consentrated efforts?

Why is the assault bike unit a Light Vehicle?

Why is the DP not a WE like Avatar?

Why is the average number of deamons rolled up to 8 now from 7 with augment?

Why are deamons allowed to actually increase the formation's size turn after turn now? The chaos player said he'll have to purchase even more daemons now.

Why are damons still immune to blast markers?

Overall, why did deamons get an uptick in power in the game if they were previously overpowered? Adding points cost looked like it was going to help, but with 4-12 deamons rolled, now increased from 2- 12, and the average number of daemons summoned up from 7 to 8 now, and with the ability to grow a formation, with the elimination of payment for sacrifices, the net result appears to be stronger daemons in the game. How is this really tuning them down?

The Decimator - like before is too good for its points. Ignore cover and macro-weapon is a sick combo for such a cheap war engine when coupled with fearless and the rest of its firepower + DC. Why didn't they tone this down or increase the points significantly?

Why are the death wheel and decimator not part of the titan restricted points?

Why is there so much fearless in the army.

Tzeentch cult marines are fearless, as good as terminators with the 4+ RA, can summon daemons, and can bury themselves in a formation of extra wounds. Why don't they cost more than marine terminators.

Why isn't there a chance for the banelord to blow up with its critical - though there was much conversation and joking about it's previous version of critical. They were both appearently thankful of changes in the titan criticals across the board.

The chaos player said his feral titan formation had better weapons than his reaver titan formation overall. He made the comment that for the points, he'll experiment more with the ferals now.

Both of them were wondering if anyone playtesting Black legion army against marines?

End of the questions I heard being discussed

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 Post subject: Black Legion 3.4 => 3.5 *CHANGES LIST?*
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:05 pm 
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Tactica, a lot of those questions are ones I heard with 3.4 (with the obvious exceptions of the ones arising from the Daemon changes).

SM's having issues as a standard, non-air drop/teleport force is more a problem with their list than the CSM one, however.

Have you reposted this on the SG board?

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